Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

And flying cars. We'll have flying cars, don't forget.

Well, that's one way to solve congestion.

They better be automated, though - the LAST thing we need is midair collisions all over the metro.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Well, that's one way to solve congestion.

They better be automated, though - the LAST thing we need is midair collisions all over the metro.

for the sake of safety, i hope flying cars never happen. unless they can not be tampered with 100% guaranteed. people cant control 2 dimensional movement let alone 3. and even if fully automated if they are networked, how about security from hacking? look at those Jeep's.

i have more faith in point-to-point transportation like in Star Trek to be solving all our transportation problems.

[officedweller]

CAPSTAN WAY STATION AT CAPSTAN VILLAGE: Plans for the new Capstan Way station are said to be ahead of schedule, according to city spokesperson Ted Townsend. The city needs $25 million from development charges for the station, and has $14.5 million in the bank. Another $17 million is committed thanks in large part to the 1,150-unit Concord Gardens. However, Yuanheng Holdings Ltd., developer of the 850-unit, under-construction complex dubbed Vista Star, has told the city it is interested in loaning some money to the city to speed up the process. Townsend said it is too early to speculate on a start date, but 2027 was seen as an old estimate. The station may not slow down the commute time on the Canada Line as trains are expected to move faster than they presently do. Three other stations are also planned (57th Ave., 33rd Ave. and airport) in the long-term.

http://www.richmond-news.com/news/weekly...-1.9800571#sthash.Nj4QN3Ek.FtuzwUEQ.dpuf

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

I have more faith in point-to-point transportation like in Star Trek to be solving all our transportation problems.

Oh f**k no. Transporters involve literally disintegrating a person into atoms, then rebuilding them somewhere else.

So if technological advances haven't made autonomous vehicles (let alone skycars) glitch-proof and unhackable yet, then transporters'll be even worse - think of all the things that could go wrong with a simple USB data transfer and multiply them by a million.

[Sheba]

I'm voting for Futurama's tube transport!

[Reecemartin]

A tad curious since I have been living in Toronto for nearly a year. The money the feds pitched in is going to new B - Lines as well as new Canada Line Cars correct?

What type of buses are likely to be run on the new B -Lines? Artics in Langley?

Will further Canada Line cars definitely be Hyundai Rotem? Is there a newer model?

[cganuelas1995]

I'm wondering if it would be possible/feasible to change the propulsion system of the Canada Line to linear induction motor and if so, cost and time to complete.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I'm wondering if it would be possible/feasible to change the propulsion system of the Canada Line to linear induction motor and if so, cost and time to complete.

Yeah but what would be the point? That's not going to make it compatible with the ART lines

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Yeah but what would be the point? That's not going to make it compatible with the ART lines

It could open up options to make it compatible, as well as future interconnection.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

It could open up options to make it compatible, as well as future interconnection.

While it may initially seem like a good idea there are numerous reasons why this would be impractical
- Different Propulsion (lim)
- Different Train length would require expansion of Canada Line stations
- Canada Line Trains are also wider than ART stock

Nonetheless I understand any frustration, the Canada Line is appallingly under built, and has a max capacity of only 15000 pphpd. My assumption is that it won't be too long before another North South Route is necessary especially with growth in Richmond, YVR, new stations, and especially when the Broadway Subway extension happens (I'd imagine alot of people might favor the likely shorter transfer)

[madog222]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

It could open up options to make it compatible, as well as future interconnection.

Not really.
An intermediate solution would need to be make for the cars communication link which lies where the aluminum pad would need to be installed. One would need to have new cars designed and manufactured to the same dimensions as the current Hyundai with LIM motors. Waterfront station has no option for extension, let alone connecting with the ICTS system. Broadway needs no connection nor would it be feasible. Except for a bridge parallel to the current Massey Tunnel any extension of the Canada line would be over flat grade where traditional motors work just as well.

[MIPS]

Overall the existing infrastructure like the tunnels and the bridge would require little modification to be converted as all the turns and grades the Canada Line runs are well within what ICTS was designed to handle. In fact the bend around Queen Elizabeth Park will become much quieter. The big problem is that the rails would need to be moved (if I recall the track width is larger on the Canada than on the SkyTrain), switches will need to be replaced and the rail bed in stations would need to be raised because unlike the SkyTrain there's a large amount of electronics and the motors themselves stuffed underneath.
The biggest problem however is that if you wanted to connect the line to the existing Expo Line so you can access Edmonds without having to move equipment by truck a new tunnel would have to be bored as Waterfront Station intersects the tracks at something like an 80 degree angle to the Expo Line at the East station entrance.

In the far future I might see it happening but not for at least another 20 years.

edited: Double ninja'd.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by MIPS

The big problem is that the rails would need to be moved (if I recall the track width is larger on the Canada than on the SkyTrain)

I thought the E, M, and C lines were the same gauge.

[madog222]

Running rails are the same width, standard gauge.

Third (power) rails are spaced differently, of different design, and are supplied with different voltages.

[Reecemartin]

There is no logical reason to connect these lines without the Canada Line being fully converted to ART as the current trains are too wide for the ART stations. In addition the Canada Line isn't lacking service/repair space so I don't know what if any logistical purpose exists for making this connection.

IMO an interesting question to ask would be what technology would be used if another N-S Line is built, we could either move towards having 2 distinct systems like New York or have an odd line running different spec like Toronto.

[WarrenC12]

Guys this isn't the transit fantasy thread. Canada Line will not change to LIM.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Guys this isn't the transit fantasy thread. Canada Line will not change to LIM.

Someone should go back in time and, by any means necessary, silence the person who decided to go with conventional DC motors instead of LIM.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I thought the E, M, and C lines were the same gauge.

They're the same Rail gauge, they are different loading gauge (eg car width)

Standard gauge is 1,435 mm.

The Skytrain MKII loading gauge is 2650mm.
The Canada Line cars loading gauge is 3M wide (eg more typical subway width)

The JFK version of the same Bombardier rolling stock is 3.10 m. JFK's system is essentially identical to our MKII's except without the articulated connection.

For reference, the TTC, which does not use standard gauge on either it's subway(3.13m) or streetcar LRV's (2.54m) use Toronto gauge 1,495 mm.

It is unlikely that the Canada Line would ever be converted to use the existing MKI/II/III rolling stock, it just wouldn't make sense to. However there is nothing stopping them from ordering cars from Bombardier that use identical parts to the MK/I/II/III save for the propulsion system (the Riyadh Metro line 3 uses the same cars, on Mitrac propulsion, look at http://www.metro-report.com/news/single-...ery-of-first-bombardier-metro-train.html to see the height difference, and note that it's sitting on the LIM track.)

So if Translink wanted to save money on maintenance they could just get trains built by Bombardier for the Canada Line. The reason they wouldn't currently is that the PPP contract would not let them to. The Private operator would have to order things, and likely by running a new RFP.

Likewise Translink could always do the same with the Expo line. I'm sure the same company who made the Chinese version of the Innovia Metro in China would love to bid on it, or even other LIM-based metro cars in Japan. The main issue really is not who we get it from, but standardization of parts. It simply does not make sense to have too many unique systems, because that means you need to have more maintenance staff to manage each version. That is typically why in places like Toronto and New York, once they order new trains, they decomission the oldest ones.

The fact that all of the LIM rolling stock is able to run anywhere on the LIM tracks is a plus, even though from a marketing point of view, it's really more like 4 systems (Expo Waterfront to Columbia (1985, with Columbia 1989.) Expo Columbia to King George(1994), Millenium Line Columbia to VCC(2002 VCC 2006,) and Millenium Line Lougheed to Lafarge Lake (2016.) We just consider the entire Expo line one line even though it was built as two pieces.

This is why there is a lot of noise about the Surrey LRT boondoggle. It's not rapid, it's not frequent, it's not automated, it doesn't work with ANY of the existing rolling stock systems or power systems... and they haven't even RFP'd for rolling stock yet. We know this already because of them wanting to run it down the median of what are essentially highways. It doesn't take a transportation planning engineer to tell you that this plan is going to be a bottomless money pit. You can not consider capital costs alone when planning rapid transit. In nearly every BRT vs LRT argument, the BRT always wins, but the city goes with LRT anyway because they promised their voters a train.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Someone should go back in time and, by any means necessary, silence the person who decided to go with conventional DC motors instead of LIM.

That would involve shutting up everybody in the decision loop at InTransit BC (made up of SNC-Lavalin, Seltrac, the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec and the Investment Management Corporation of BC) who decided that the Rotems were slightly cheaper than the Bombardiers.

It would also involve erasing TransLink's "fair playing field" bid procedures. And stopping Gordon Campbell's Liberals from making the Canada Line a P3 project. And censoring every politician from Derek Corrigan (who else?) to Don MacLean who thought the line would be a financial disaster and so wanted the cheapest option possible.

At which point, you would essentially need to have martial law over British Columbia for this one project. Anybody got a time machine and several dozen attack helos?

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That would involve shutting up everybody in the decision loop at InTransit BC (made up of SNC-Lavalin, Seltrac, the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec and the Investment Management Corporation of BC) who decided that the Rotems were slightly cheaper than the Bombardiers.

It would also involve erasing TransLink's "fair playing field" bid procedures. And stopping Gordon Campbell's Liberals from making the Canada Line a P3 project. And censoring every politician from Derek Corrigan (who else?) to Don MacLean who thought the line would be a financial disaster and so wanted the cheapest option possible.

At which point, you would essentially need to have martial law over British Columbia for this one project. Anybody got a time machine and several dozen attack helos?

Would building the same exact line with the same station size and total track length with SkyTrain tech be more or less expensive than what we have now?