Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[llatch]

Originally Posted by OttawaSteve

- At Cyrville station westbound our train stopped and waited with the doors open. After a couple of minutes, a PA announcement said that westbound trains were boarding from the eastbound platform. Passengers warily disembarked and stood on the centre platform. No trains arrived on the eastbound platform. After a couple more minutes, the doors on our original westbound train suddenly began to close. There then commenced a rush to re-board the original westbound train, which, with its passengers back on board, then resumed its westbound journey. We made the slow, crowded journey downtown without further incident.

So the automated messaging provides incorrect information, the operator sees everyone follow the incorrect information and then... shrugs and keeps going?

[Fading Isle]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Video riding the Hurdman curve: https://photos.app.goo.gl/EEbzFsfhKE239eSD8

Not too bad really. No wheel rubbing noise and no vibration. Speed is fine. Used to be much worse.

From my experience, it seems to be worse going west than it is going east. They take most of the section between Tremblay and Lees really slowly. For a few months they were taking all the turns from Cyrville to Lees equally slowly, but they are going a bit faster for the other curves now (still not full speed).

[lrt's friend]

I watched this video of the Skytrain last night after using the Confed Line several times in the last month. It is shocking the difference in performance. Look at the trains running much faster than neighbouring traffic. This is how you attract ridership. We purchased trains capable of 100 km/hr but we have not been able make use of that speed because of track problems. We need to resolve these problems to make full use of the performance of our trains and to get people to their destinations faster than by car. It is unacceptable to accept slow service when we have a 100% segregated right of way.

• Video Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdNyUUh2MWE

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I watched this video of the Skytrain last night after using the Confed Line several times in the last month. It is shocking the difference in performance. Look at the trains running much faster than neighbouring traffic. This is how you attract ridership. We purchased trains capable of 100 km/hr but we have not been able make use of that speed because of track problems. We need to resolve these problems to make full use of the performance of our trains and to get people to their destinations faster than by car. It is unacceptable to accept slow service when we have a 100% segregated right of way.

• Video Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdNyUUh2MWE

This is what happens when you build according to what your goal is,and you stick with it.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I watched this video of the Skytrain last night after using the Confed Line several times in the last month. It is shocking the difference in performance. Look at the trains running much faster than neighbouring traffic. This is how you attract ridership. We purchased trains capable of 100 km/hr but we have not been able make use of that speed because of track problems. We need to resolve these problems to make full use of the performance of our trains and to get people to their destinations faster than by car. It is unacceptable to accept slow service when we have a 100% segregated right of way.

• Video Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdNyUUh2MWE

This seems like a silly comparison and argument.

The Confederation Line easily matches or outpaces traffic along Nicholas and Scott, particularly when there's traffic. You're also looking at a pre-pandemic video taken on a weekday and comparing that to the state of a road like the Queensway post-pandemic.

While there are temporary speed restrictions in place, I think it's just as important to point out that the current practical speed limit of these trains is constrained by the spacing between stations. You can whine about the Hurdman curves all you want, these trains were never going to hit 100km/h between Tunney's and Blair in the first place.

I would bet that the story will be different once the eastern extension opens, especially if traffic picks up, or if construction to widen the 174 begins (ironically).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is what happens when you build according to what your goal is,and you stick with it.

What did Ottawa do wrong that prevented us from reaching our goal? Corner cutting? Something else? It seems to me that track construction was not properly tailored to the trains chosen, which shows incompetence in executing the plan.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

This seems like a silly comparison and argument.

The Confederation Line easily matches or outpaces traffic along Nicholas and Scott, particularly when there's traffic. You're also looking at a pre-pandemic video taken on a weekday and comparing that to the state of a road like the Queensway post-pandemic.

While there are temporary speed restrictions in place, I think it's just as important to point out that the current practical speed limit of these trains is constrained by the spacing between stations. You can whine about the Hurdman curves all you want, these trains were never going to hit 100km/h between Tunney's and Blair in the first place.

I would bet that the story will be different once the eastern extension opens, especially if traffic picks up, or if construction to widen the 174 begins (ironically).

Why is this a silly comparison? I ride the train and it runs at the speed of a bicycle. I look at the Skytrain and the trains move much faster than the Confed Line including downtown. Both are grade separated, so you would think that both are comparable. We have 'temporary speed restrictions' that have lasted several months. Is this ever going to be resolved? Why do we make excuses for a system that has never operated properly since it opened?

I live in the south end. I have watched buses out-pace the Trillium Line trains routinely. Why? Because of the poor design of the Trillium Line. Trains repeatedly having to slowly move in and out of sidings. Will that be resolved with Phase 2? I have no reason to believe so.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What did Ottawa do wrong that prevented us from reaching our goal? Corner cutting? Something else? It seems to me that track construction was not properly tailored to the trains chosen, which shows incompetence in executing the plan.

There wasn't risk sharing for unknown unknowns (geology), which depleted the financial capacity of the P3 partner, and the City instead of coming to the table with more money, pressured the P3 partner to complete the project within the funding envelope—cost cutting by another way. Then the city continued to undermine the financial capacity of the partner (by holding to original funding schedules and conditions), and pressured the partner to open the project (which ironically pushed back payments, as a way to keep the partner afloat was to authorize them to not procure an adequate number of trains, which lowered quality of service to such a degree as to impact availability payments). On the partner side, the partner didn't push back as much as they should likely because they wanted to be able to compete for the future phase which followed sooner than anticipated.

The dynamic is similar in contracting or auctions where there is a must-win competition, and firms end up destroying their long-term viability by bidding in at a probable loss.

Add to that people in Ottawa being trained due to branching service that they must get on the vehicle or else they will see major delays, which ended up causing cascading delays. And the City of Ottawa trying to realize operational savings on day one instead of running a long soft opening.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What did Ottawa do wrong that prevented us from reaching our goal? Corner cutting? Something else? It seems to me that track construction was not properly tailored to the trains chosen, which shows incompetence in executing the plan.

Ottawa was trying to build a Boston MBTA Green line and then flipped to building a subway type line with the wrong equipment. Got to Boston and ride all lines and there is a definite speed difference between the lines. So, when you compare the Skytrain with this, there will be a speed difference.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ottawa was trying to build a Boston MBTA Green line and then flipped to building a subway type line with the wrong equipment. Got to Boston and ride all lines and there is a definite speed difference between the lines. So, when you compare the Skytrain with this, there will be a speed difference.

But is it just the trains? I don't think so. The specs required 100 km/hr operations, which I expect is similar to the Skytrain equipment. I know that Alstom has said that this was pushing the capability of this sort of train, but is there something else about these trains that limits their performance?

It seems to me that the city had tunnel vision. Were they not open to advice from the experts who actually run trains? Or are we paying the permanent price for fitting a plan within a fixed budget rather than finding the budget to do the project properly?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

But is it just the trains? I don't think so. The specs required 100 km/hr operations, which I expect is similar to the Skytrain equipment. I know that Alstom has said that this was pushing the capability of this sort of train, but is there something else about these trains that limits their performance?

It seems to me that the city had tunnel vision. Were they not open to advice from the experts who actually run trains? Or are we paying the permanent price for fitting a plan within a fixed budget rather than finding the budget to do the project properly?

It is not just the rolling stock. I suspect that if a forensic audit was done to find all the problems and to identify how they were caused, we would learn that the design does not meat the requirements. That could include track geometry and winterproofing of the line.

[J.OT13]

Maximum speed that the SkyTrain rolling stock can achieve is 80km/h, which is pretty standard for a metro. For comparison, Calgary and Edmonton trains top out at 80km/h as well. Montreal's Azure's top speed is 72km/h and Toronto Rockets are rated at 75km/h (generally these two systems have closer station spacing, so it makes sense).

So on paper, speed wise, the O-Train could outperform all of them. Slow orders and ridiculously long dwell times are holding us back.

REM's Alstom Metropolis can go as fast as 120km/h, but they will limit them to 100km/h.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Maximum speed that the SkyTrain rolling stock can achieve is 80km/h, which is pretty standard for a metro. For comparison, Calgary and Edmonton trains top out at 80km/h as well. Montreal's Azure's top speed is 72km/h and Toronto Rockets are rated at 75km/h (generally these two systems have closer station spacing, so it makes sense).

So on paper, speed wise, the O-Train could outperform all of them. Slow orders and ridiculously long dwell times are holding us back.

REM's Alstom Metropolis can go as fast as 120km/h, but they will limit them to 100km/h.

Top speed and line design speed are 2 totally different things. I feel that this line is not designed to be very fast with the way it curves.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Top speed and line design speed are 2 totally different things. I feel that this line is not designed to be very fast with the way it curves.

The curves are mostly close to stations where trains wouldn’t go fast anyway.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What did Ottawa do wrong that prevented us from reaching our goal? Corner cutting? Something else? It seems to me that track construction was not properly tailored to the trains chosen, which shows incompetence in executing the plan.

McGuinty insisted on paying a fixed provincial contribution, unlike other transit projects where the province paid a share. Since the Feds wouldn’t pay more than the province, the city was left with 100% of the cost increase, which left it desperate to contain costs (and cut corners).

On top of this, the city made the mind-numbingly stupid decision to insist on tram technologies, against the advice of industry, consultants and common sense.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Why is this a silly comparison? I ride the train and it runs at the speed of a bicycle. I look at the Skytrain and the trains move much faster than the Confed Line including downtown. Both are grade separated, so you would think that both are comparable.

I can cherry-pick sections of the Expo line that are slow too. Did you see how slowly it left Commercial-Broadway? Did you see how slow it moved at times when rounding the bend into Waterfront?

If all you've done is ride the Confederation Line back and forth between St-Laurent and Lees, then fine. It's unpleasantly slow. A lot of that is due to temporary restrictions, but it's also some of the inevitability of track design that even systems like the SkyTrain need to deal with.

You still seem to ignore the stretches that the Confederation Line does move quickly, and there will only be more of those sections as it gets built out. Remember, you're comparing a 12.1KM line in its infancy to a nearly 80km network that has more of its straightaways built out.

I'll refer back to this chart comparing average speeds of urban rail systems in Canada, and I'll especially point out the jump in average speed that comes after all of Stage 2 is built (from those numbers it even exceeds the SkyTrain, and no not all of that is because of the Greenbelt).

We have 'temporary speed restrictions' that have lasted several months. Is this ever going to be resolved? Why do we make excuses for a system that has never operated properly since it opened?

In the scope of this system's lifespan (which is a very long time), a year or so to study, design, and implement a solution is still very much temporary. Your periodic complaining isn't going to make the process go any faster.

I live in the south end. I have watched buses out-pace the Trillium Line trains routinely. Why? Because of the poor design of the Trillium Line. Trains repeatedly having to slowly move in and out of sidings. Will that be resolved with Phase 2? I have no reason to believe so.

Ok, and?

The Trillium Line's speed is constrained for a totally different set of reasons (and historically only in one direction). Even if those passing tracks were extended and Walkley were doubled (which is what I assume you're talking about), the reality is that those trains aren't going to be able to accelerate/decelerate as fast as an individual bus can. Is that really a problem? No.

The point of trains isn't to be absolutely faster than every other mode of transportation at every possible moment.

But if you truly want to make transit faster than driving in every single use case, then you will need to deliberately make driving slower which is something you've also been vehemently against. It's not like the SkyTrain is competing against 100km/h roads, or even 80km/h roads. Stewardson Way, which is one of the most obvious examples of the SkyTrain overtaking traffic in that video, is a 50km/h road. King George Boulevard is a 60km/h road.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The curves are mostly close to stations where trains wouldn’t go fast anyway.

That is not a solution, but a mitigation. The curvature and super elevation should be such that the LRVs can run flat out from the station.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is not a solution, but a mitigation. The curvature and super elevation should be such that the LRVs can run flat out from the station.

Since everyone is talking about Vancouver's curves, one interesting comparison is the Canada Line. While the other lines have fast and quiet super elevated curves, the Canada line has flat, screechy and slow turns, though there's far less of them then Ottawa so it's not as much of a problem. It also has stupidly short platforms that cannot be easily extended .

And the other major difference is that it was built with a P3 model just like ours, which I think really encourages corner cutting as companies try to squeak out as much profit since they are on the hook for all the risk

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is not a solution, but a mitigation. The curvature and super elevation should be such that the LRVs can run flat out from the station.

Have you ever been on a transit line where trains ran flat out from a station?

Planners wanted to have stations in places that are not in a straight line. You can’t do that without curves. I guess they could have dropped the VIA station and OttawaU which would have removed several curves.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Have you ever been on a transit line where trains ran flat out from a station?

Planners wanted to have stations in places that are not in a straight line. You can’t do that without curves. I guess they could have dropped the VIA station and OttawaU which would have removed several curves.

I don't think even that would eliminate the curves as they needed to follow the transit way. If they went straight from Parliament to UOttawa it would have been a bit straighter but that's a major stop. The main stop in many ways.

Certainly there are trainsets that can navigate curves at fairly high speeds. It's quite common worldwide.