Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

If Halifax was to build a new stadium and attract a CFL team, does anyone know how much a CFL team normally pays in rent to use the stadium? I am sure there are a lot of factors involved such as who gets parking fees, concessions, and etc., but I was just wondering, because I understand that in some CFL cities, (Hamilton for example), the CFL team pays $0 in stadium rental. I am sure that this is just one part of the financial analysis that HRM must be considering. The same thing for concert promoters. What does it cost to rent a 25,000 seat stadium to host a concert? Is it even viable for a concert promoter?

I think that it will vary greatly from city to city, and will depend on the health of the CFL team. It might be better to consider what the HRM currently charges for the Metro Centre. For the Metro Centre, I remember reading that the rental for Moosehead games is the higher of a per spectator charge or a flat rate - so the more in attendance then the higher the rental charge. I posted a table from the following link for a proposed Metro Centre II - (source: page 269/314 of the pdf file https://conventioncentreinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Feasibility-Study-Vol-1.pdf ). It seems as though a ticket charge of 10% would be a reasonable amount for the municipality to charge.

For CFL teams the ticket prices are in the $50 - $80 dollar range per game. So if the lease specified 10% of ticket revenue at $50 per ticket and the annual attendance averaged 225,000 spectators per year then the city would get 225,000 x $50 x 10%/100% = $1,125,000/year. It might get more from luxury suites. Then if they could get 50% of concessions and each person spent $10 on concessions then that could be another $10 x 50%/100% x 225,000 spectators/year = $1,125,000 gross (minus the expenses, so possibly another $500,000 from concessions). The municipality could likely also get part of the parking revenue. I think that it would be reasonable to expect the municipality to get about $2,000,000 per year from a CFL team - this isn't a huge amount of money so it would make sense to go with a decent but economical stadium. The city would also get money from electronic signs on the stadium (if in a highly visible location) plus naming rights. I think that a stadium with all of the seats covered would be a good concert venue but mainly for concerts of over 15,000 people so that it doesn't take business away from the Metro Centre. I read that the concerts on the Commons cost $500,000 - $1,000,000 just to set up. So I would think that a concert promoter would likely be willing to pay 5% - 10% of ticket sales plus concessions. If a stadium could attract 150,000 spectators per year to concerts at $100 per ticket then the city could potentially get another $1,500,000 (10% of ticket sales).

Potentially an economical stadium could run without a deficit (probably the best that one could hope for) - especially if the HRM could get federal funding by hosting an international sporting event (example: as one host city of the 2015 Women's FIFA Cup). I was told that the Metro Centre makes money but it probably doesn't have amortization payments. However, there is a strong possibility that even an economical stadium would run at a deficit, then it would become an issue of whether people would want it as a "better quality of life" venue.

[fenwick16]

I did not draw the model below (I wish that I could take credit, but really it was drawn by dizzyHARSH and posted on the Google 3D Warehouse). I simply added a section-cut to display the construction method of this stadium. The model drawn by dizzyHARSH below is of a real stadium - the Cardiff City Stadium in Cardiff, Wales, UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium).

I added the section-cut plane to show the comparatively simple construction method of this stadium. I can see benefits to having a single tier, above ground stadium. In my opinion, this is a more permanent and better version of the BC Lion's Empire temporary stadium; better - in that it doesn't have columns obstructing half of the seats. A benefit to having a single tier above ground is that there is more space under the stands for concourses and washrooms (as compared to a sunken stadium design). One of the few luxuries with this stadium is that all the seats are covered with a roof - which I think will be very important in order to generate a consistent income for a stadium. It is also built with luxury seats and meeting rooms shown on the right-hand side of the image. However, the beauty of this design is that the second tier, meeting rooms and luxury seats shown on the right-hand side could all be added after construction is complete and it is required. In fact with this design, a second tier of seats can be built all around the stadium to increase the number of seats by about 8,000 for the entire second tier. The first row of seats at ground level could also be built about 8 feet above ground level so that for special events about 4,000 additional seats could be added by using temporary seats at field level.

This stadium design is large enough for international FIFA soccer but would have to be extended by about 70 feet for Canadian football. If just one tier of seats was built all around (instead of having a second tier on one side) but extended by about 70 feet then I think that it could easily seat about 27,000 or more depending on whether they are folding chairs or bench style. With an additional second tier and temporary seats along the sidelines then I think that it could eventually accommodate close to 40,000.

This stadium was built for £48 million (about $77 million dollars, which included luxury seats and meeting rooms on one side). Here are some actual construction images at this link - http://www.cardiffcity-mad.co.uk/news/tm..._cardiff_city_stadium_395617/index.shtml . If the HRM and province could start making plans for a stadium then they would have a legitimate reason for contacting the architect/engineer of this stadium to get more details. (and possibly be able to get building plans at a low rate - it would be an essentially out-of-the-box stadium design).

[Empire]

If you start a fund, you can build it.


Apple Dome to open today
Berwick’s debt-free arena boasts NHL-size ice surface
By GORDON DELANEY Valley Bureau
Fri, Oct 15 - 5:58 PM

George Moody, chairman of the volunteer group that built the new Apple Dome arena and sports complex in Berwick, checks some last-minute details Thursday before the official opening ceremonies on Sunday. (GORDON DELANEY / Valley Bureau)






BERWICK — Ten years ago it was just a dream around a coffee table.

Now it’s about to become a reality with the official opening of a new $13-million arena and recreation facility scheduled for this weekend in Berwick.

"Our dream has finally come true," George Moody, chairman of the Kings Mutual Century Centre, affectionately known as the Apple Dome, said Thursday in an interview outside the new building on Veterans Drive.

"This facility is the only one of its kind in Atlantic Canada, meaning that the building is owned by the community and there is no long-term debt attached to it," said Moody, a former Tory cabinet minister.

Construction of the multi-use recreational facility began in May 2009 and the keys to the finished complex will be handed over to the Berwick and District Community Association at centre ice Sunday, as part of the opening ceremonies.

The sprawling new recreational complex includes an NHL-size ice surface with 865 seats, a 230-metre walking track and the Berwick and District Lions Club multi-purpose meeting space.

The building’s design and construction will lend itself to expansion for other community assets, such as a curling rink, fitness centre and library.

"This complex is vital to the health and well-being of residents and is a landmark and monument of the tremendous community spirit and involvement," said Moody.

"It was a struggle, because we said we’re not starting the project until we actually have our money in the bank. We didn’t want the facility to have a long-term mortgage; this way we’re not saddling anybody with any long-term debt."

He said the volunteer group is unique in that it approached government after having raised its own $4-million contribution.

"Since we were a non-profit group and volunteers, we had to figure out a way to raise the money for a new facility," Moody said, as workers continued to put the finishing touches on the building Thursday.

"Some didn’t believe that we could actually raise that kind of money initially."

But the project got kick-started nine years ago when Kings Mutual Insurance donated $1 million.

"That’s when people started to believe in it," Moody said. And the community got busy raising the rest of the money.

The provincial and federal governments threw in $4 million each, and the Town of Berwick and Municipality of Kings County contributed about $500,000 each.

"But the biggest contributor, of over $4 million, has come from the community itself," said Moody.

Celebrations marking the opening begin today with high school boys and girls hockey games on the new ice surface.

Saturday will feature several family events, including a free skate, Lions Club breakfast, facility tours and the first home game for the Kings Mutual Valley Wildcats Major Bantam Hockey team against the Nova Jr. X-Men.

The official opening ceremonies begin at 2 p.m. Sunday, with musical entertainment featuring the Hupman Brothers, and a ribbon-cutting ceremony with government and community representatives.

( [email protected])

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

If you start a fund, you can build it.

Apple Dome to open today
Berwick’s debt-free arena boasts NHL-size ice surface
By GORDON DELANEY Valley Bureau
Fri, Oct 15 - 5:58 PM

George Moody, chairman of the volunteer group that built the new Apple Dome arena and sports complex in Berwick, checks some last-minute details Thursday before the official opening ceremonies on Sunday. (GORDON DELANEY / Valley Bureau)

BERWICK — Ten years ago it was just a dream around a coffee table.

Now it’s about to become a reality with the official opening of a new $13-million arena and recreation facility scheduled for this weekend in Berwick.

"Our dream has finally come true," George Moody, chairman of the Kings Mutual Century Centre, affectionately known as the Apple Dome, said Thursday in an interview outside the new building on Veterans Drive.

( [email protected])

I think that a similar funding approach would succeed with a stadium also. I just keep hoping that someone down there - maybe some people on this forum - Empire, Keith P., Beyeas, hfx_chris or others, could organize meetings in the HRM area. The HRM council has shown little or no interest in doing so.

[halifaxboyns]

Regardless of where this is built; if a form of stadium that would be covered is proposed; please let's make sure this isn't the same problem as here.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Regardless of where this is built; if a form of stadium that would be covered is proposed; please let's make sure this isn't the same problem as here.

I don't really understand why people are freaking out so much about this. Both sports play in the rain and the spectators will be covered no matter what, so what's the difference if the roof stays open if it starts raining?

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

I don't really understand why people are freaking out so much about this. Both sports play in the rain and the spectators will be covered no matter what, so what's the difference if the roof stays open if it starts raining?

I posted it merely as something funny...

[halifaxboyns]

I also posted this in the Shannon Park forum; but given the comments on the story about a stadium - I thought I would add it to this thread as well.

Former N.S. base land worth $3.1M: report
Shannon Park closed in 2004
Last Updated: Tuesday, November 2, 2010 | 7:13 AM AT Comments26Recommend12CBC News
The lands of Shannon Park in Dartmouth, N.S., are worth a maximum of $3.1 million, according to a report commissioned by the Department of National Defence and obtained by CBC News.

But there's no word when development could begin on the former military base that's been sitting derelict since 2004.

The report identifies open spaces, proximity to major roads and beautiful harbour views as the main selling points.

"Housing, employment, commercial opportunities," Dartmouth Coun. Jim Smith said. "It would be a great catalyst to changing the whole district, especially in that area."

But the Defence Department must first sell Shannon Park to the Canada Lands Company Ltd., which sells strategic federal properties across the country.

The department hired the real estate firm Altus Group of Halifax to estimate a fair sale price. It found that if a four-hectare parcel of land that hugs the harbour shoreline is developed, it would be worth $600,000.

But the same parcel would be worth only $10,000 if kept as a public park.

No sale in works
The larger 33-hectare upland lot, which includes the former site of military barracks, is worth $2.5 million, the consultant estimated.

The report was completed in February for the Defence Department and obtained by CBC News under the Access to Information Act.

Neither Canada Lands nor the Defence Department could say when a sale will take place.

Smith said the community is tired of waiting for something to happen after six years.

"I'm excited about the future, but I'm disappointed in the past. It wasn't long ago DND was going to divest themselves of this property, and it's been a number of years now, but nothing's happened," he said.

"I just hope that it moves on as fast as it can. We'd like to see DND make a move on this sooner than later, so we can start planning."

The consultants also identified potential drawbacks to development, including traffic noise from the nearby A. Murray MacKay Bridge, high-voltage power lines, and a possible stigma attached to its former use as a military base.

Read more at CBC.

[JustinMacD]

^^^ Also said on the news that it'd likely take 10 years or so for SP to be developed.

Comedy.

[halifaxboyns]

I just watched the global news from November 2nd and they had a very small clip about the Moncton Stadium and the economic impacts that were generated by the recent CFL game.

According to the article, the City of Moncton paid $65,000 to host the game and the Province/Federal Government paid about $1.5 million each. The estimated economic impact of the festivities was about $7 million.

So for an investment of $3.5 million; the generation was double the cost. Not bad. I know Air Canada was forced to increase capacity into Moncton during the game because all the small commuter aircraft (CRJ's) filled up quickly and so they used a couple Airbus A319s and the E190 jets.

[MonctonRad]

Recopied from the "CFL in the Maritimes" thread...., it fleshes the economics out a bit.

This year's CFL game just first of many?
Published Tuesday November 2nd, 2010

Moncton is already eager for replay of Touchdown Atlantic
BY JAMES FOSTER
TIMES & TRANSCRIPT STAFF

The bills are in for Moncton's foray into professional football, and once the invoices are stamped paid, Moncton taxpayers will have invested a comparatively modest $65,000 in Touchdown Atlantic, while the provincial and federal governments got their investments returned.

"Let's do it again," Mayor George LeBlanc told last night's council meeting.

That's exactly what CFL Commissioner Mark Cohon wants to do, said Ian Fowler, the city's general manager of economic development, tourism and culture.

"He's adamant about wanting to get a deal done and he's got eight teams chomping at the bit to come to Moncton."

The key is federal and provincial participation. Each invested $1.5 million in Touchdown Atlantic, but an independent study chartered by the CFL suggests they each made that money back in newly generated taxes, and maybe a bit more.

Moncton's bottom line shows $65,698 in red ink. Here's what Fowler says taxpayers got for their money, other than the first regular-season game in Atlantic Canada.

Almost 21,000 tickets were sold, with 41 per cent of those bought by fans living 80 kilometres (53 miles) or more outside of Moncton, which generated a wave of new business for the tourism and hospitality industries during a slow time of year.

During planning, the economic impact was estimated at about $4 million, but it turned out to be almost $7 million.

Visitors spent about $1.6 million while in Moncton, while the CFL itself spent about $1.2 million.

The value of the national exposure or "earned media" that the game generated for the city and the province was pegged at $4 million, with 391 print articles read by an estimated 23 million readers; 97 stories on the Internet read 1.4 million times; 17 broadcast items seen or heard by 7 million viewers or listeners; and a televised game on TSN that boasted 654,000 viewers, the largest viewership of any sports event in Canada that day.

While the game itself was a CFL show including, for the most part, organizing it and assuming the financial risk, a local committee organized and bore the financial responsibility for the downtown party, the tailgate party at the game site, the Pigskin Soiree Gala and the Future Stars games featuring Mount Allison University vs. the St. Mary's Huskies and three local high school games.

Those events were rousing successes which will leave a legacy fund to support local and Atlantic Canadian minor sports for years to come and generated five-figure sums for a number of local charities, Fowler said. "They are very confident in reporting that they will be in the black."

The university and high school games generated record crowds, with the gate going to the teams and another $20,000 split between the two local hospital foundations. The gala and auction ended the night with $16,000 for the Atlantic football legacy fund. The downtown festival returned about $70,000 to charities and another $75,000 in legacy money.

Moncton minor football players earned about $10,000 from selling 50-50 tickets at the big game. More than $17,000 was raised for charities by those helping out at the concessions and with parking.

Of the $65,000 loss, about $41,000 was spent on city workers doing preparation and cleanup for the downtown festival, preparing Rocky Stone Memorial Field for the inordinately large crowds as well as the national media, and for a bit of preparation work at Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium. The other $24,000 went to the downtown festival. Both those figures are lower than projections, Fowler said.

Personal note: Seems like pretty good bang for your buck for $65K

[halifaxboyns]

Well remember Moncton; as global points out in their story about it; it wasn't just $65,000 from Moncton. Both the Province and the Government of Canada put in 1.5 million $ each. So you should probably look at it overall - but still; for 3.5 million $ - to create a 7 million dollar impact (or more) is impressive.

[MonctonRad]

Point well taken, but in the article they mention that the federal and provincial contributions were recovered in tax revenue........

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Point well taken, but in the article they mention that the federal and provincial contributions were recovered in tax revenue........

That's an odd point though.

Do they mean that the actual NET tax revenue covered it, or that the amount put in by those two levels of government equalled the tax revenue generated in Moncton due to that game?

If it is the latter then its just a shell game. Yes the federal government made tax money off of the Moncton game, but it didn't get the revenue from where-ever that home game usually would have been played, at which point in a net sense it still cost them the money they put in?!?!

[MonctonRad]

Yes, I suppose you're right........

This can be very difficult to sort out. ie - would the same amount of tax revenue have been generated if the game was played in Toronto? Perhaps not. It depends if a hometown Toronto crowd would have gone out to restaurants and booked hotel rooms like presumably happened in Moncton. I doubt that this would be knowable..........

There are three types of lies........lies, damn lies and statistics!

[Empire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes, I suppose you're right........

This can be very difficult to sort out. ie - would the same amount of tax revenue have been generated if the game was played in Toronto? Perhaps not. It depends if a hometown Toronto crowd would have gone out to restaurants and booked hotel rooms like presumably happened in Moncton. I doubt that this would be knowable..........

There are three types of lies........lies, damn lies and statistics!

None of the stats matter. It was a gutsy move by Moncton and it paid off whether the balance sheet shows black or red. When you have a big PR event you get benefits in many different ways.

[beyeas]

A kick at a World Cup
Halifax could be part of 2015 women’s soccer bid

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1210412.html

...
Finally!

After years of self-induced slumber caused by the Commonwealth Games fiasco in 2007, the constant public relations beating from Moncton on the sports hosting front, and local infighting over the best way to get sports infrastructure, Halifax appears ready to fight the good fight for an international event that could bring a new stadium.
...

[fenwick16]

GREAT NEWS. Now it is more than just wishful thinking, it might actually happen.

I think this is a much better event for the Halifax area than the Commonwealth Games since most people just seem to want a stadium. It will be interesting to see how much opposition there will be - we will see by the comments posted on the story today. I will re-post the story link for any who want to leave comments - http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1210412.html#comment-13119 .

Thank you Beyeas for posting the link.

PS: The story states that 6 Canadian host cities would be required and we will know in February 2011 if Canada will be selected (Canada is considered to be a front runner along with Chile). One good thing is that Toronto and Hamilton will be hosting the Pan-Am Games that year (2015) so it might mean less competition. Since Halifax doesn't have a profession CFL team at this point, the stadium won't be seen as a facility for a pro team which is an advantage as far as getting federal funding goes.

[MonctonRad]

"Insiders expect Moncton will also be a contender to host women’s World Cup games if the Canadian bid is successful"

Note this line from the Chronically Horrid article...........

There is in fact definite interest in Moncton to enter into the bid to become a World Cup host city. I'm not posting this to be malicious, I'm just making sure that you guys are aware. I'm politically neutral on this issue.

Of course, if Moncton did win this bid, we would need to upgrade our stadium which would put us in line for additional federal funding. This in turn would strengthen our position for a CFL team.

This will be a great opportunity for Halifax to get funding for a stadium but it won't entirely be clear sailing for you guys. You had better do a good job on your proposal.

[fenwick16]

The very first comment on the Chronicle Herald story was by Halifax's own Mr. No - Bruce DeVenne (he is already gearing up to oppose this bid).

(source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1210412.html#comment-13119 )

Commonwealth games revisited?

We build a stadium then have to out bid other cities to get events. Sporting events are like high end ladies of the evening they go where they get the most tax dollars handed to them. After the fact what then? A stadium that must be maintained sitting there for what 90-95% of the year unused? Remember Fredy's CWG study that said even with a CFL franchise a stadium would be a burden on the HRM taxpayers. NOTE they admit once again to super secrecy. Funny how that always shows up when some outfit is trying to open the tax coffers for a money losing deal isn't it. What happened to open government? This smaks of the CWG all over again