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  #1581  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 5:26 PM
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Sin implies the existence of god and satan.

But yet you make it sound that it's bad to be Fat. And that anyone who drives on the freeway is evil.
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  #1582  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 6:28 PM
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But yet you make it sound that it's bad to be Fat. And that anyone who drives on the freeway is evil.
theistic religion does not have a monopoly on morals.

Regardless, we need to stop giving the auto industry a monopoly on transportation by funding all their infrastructure without funding other modes too. We should be building as many rails, bicycle lanes, sidewalks etc. as we do roads.
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  #1583  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 6:53 PM
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For there being no right and wrong or anything more than this short life there's a lot of worry over such minute things as freeway expansion This life is your last life right, enjoy it, stop worrying about if a freeway is used more than a rail line.
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  #1584  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 7:33 PM
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For there being no right and wrong or anything more than this short life there's a lot of worry over such minute things as freeway expansion This life is your last life right, enjoy it, stop worrying about if a freeway is used more than a rail line.
I want to improve the quality of life for all. Why should a belief in god or an afterlife have anything to do with that? If you need to rely on these beliefs to encourage you to be a good person, then it's probably best you just go on believing. I however, don't need theism to tell me what is good and what is bad. It's not that black and white anyway, there are many shades of gray. To me, having a multitude of modes for travel is like a shade of gray. We can have cars too, although the impact on public health should be considered, but their infrastructure shouldn't be implemented any faster than the infrastructure of alternate modes.
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  #1585  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 8:48 PM
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Just My Thought...

Improving the quality of life is a struggle that we must endure everyday in order to better position our future generations.

I recently saw a documentary on the crumbling US Infrastructure on The History Channel. It was horrific to see how degrading our infrastructure has become. It has become so due to people thinking "bandaide" or "not my problem". Sometimes, due to various situations, bandaides are needed, but they should not be the solution. Unfortunately they are sometimes viewed as the solution and leave it up to the next generation to deal with.

The question should be what is really a temporary fix or what is better.
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  #1586  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanboy View Post
theistic religion does not have a monopoly on morals.

Regardless, we need to stop giving the auto industry a monopoly on transportation by funding all their infrastructure without funding other modes too. We should be building as many rails, bicycle lanes, sidewalks etc. as we do roads.

I do believe that alot of cities have already and have been adding all those other infrastructure. Just take a look at all the new light rail projects going on right now. With all the new road projects I'm starting to see more and more bicycle lanes to the side. You got the Jordan River Parkway plus all the other trails. And as for sidewalks....well you can find those everywhere just about.

I do agree Freeways and roads shouldn't be the only infrastructure, but you keep talking as is freeways is the only way to get around.
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  #1587  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 10:48 PM
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I agree, I was expressing sarcasm because you turned what someone said into a religious idea. I think any fairly intelligent person recognizes the use of the word sin as a synonym of wrong. So he was asking if it was wrong to want to drive a car, or drive on a freeway. It's not a religious issue.

I also think the idea of 'widening freeways causes more congestion' is inaccurate. I think the cause-effect relationship is the opposite. Widening freeways doesn't cause more people to drive on them. More people driving on them causes them to be widened.

The debate and challenge is figuring out if that'll work, if we want it, if we can support it, and at what point, if any, is it too much?
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  #1588  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyAnderson View Post
I agree, I was expressing sarcasm because you turned what someone said into a religious idea. I think any fairly intelligent person recognizes the use of the word sin as a synonym of wrong. So he was asking if it was wrong to want to drive a car, or drive on a freeway. It's not a religious issue.

I also think the idea of 'widening freeways causes more congestion' is inaccurate. I think the cause-effect relationship is the opposite. Widening freeways doesn't cause more people to drive on them. More people driving on them causes them to be widened.

The debate and challenge is figuring out if that'll work, if we want it, if we can support it, and at what point, if any, is it too much?

The Triple Convergence

Stuck in Traffic (1992), pp. 27-29, by Anthony Downs





"Nearly every vehicle driver normally searches for the quickest route, one that is shorter or less encumbered by obstacles (such as traffic signals or cross-streets) than most other routes. These direct routes are usually limited-access roads (freeways, expressways, or beltways) that are faster than local streets if they are not congested. Since most drivers know this, they converge on such 'best' routes from many points of origin.

The problem is that during the peak travel hours on weekdays, so many drivers converge on these 'best' routes that they become overloaded, particularly in metropolitan areas. Traffic on them eventually slows to the point where they have no advantage over the alternative routes. That is, a rough equilibrium is reached, which means that many drivers can get to their destinations just as fast on other roads. At times, the direct road may become even slower than alternative streets, and some drivers eager to save time will switch to them. Soon rough equality of travel times on both types of route is restored at the margin. The opposite happens if travel becomes slower on alternative streets than on the expressway.

Such observations can be made about this equilibrium situation: (1) it tends to recur, because most drivers develop habitual travel patterns; (2) during equilibrium each limited-access road is carrying more vehicles per hour than each normal city street or arterial route because it has more lanes, more direct routing, and fewer obstacles; (3) many drivers time their journeys to miss these periods because they do not like to waste time in heavy traffic; and (4) at the peak of equilibrium, traffic on most expressways is crawling along at a pace far below the optimal speed for those roads, as explained below. Now suppose that the limited-access route undergoes a vast improvement -- its four lanes are expanded to eight. Once its carrying capacity is increased, the drivers using it move much faster than those using alternative routes. But this disequilibrium does not last long because word soon gets around that conditions on the expressway are superior.

In response, three types of convergence occur on the improved expressway: (1) many drivers who formerly used alternative routes during peak hours switch to the improved expressway (spatial convergence); (2) many drivers who formerly traveled just before or after the peak hours start traveling during those hours (time convergence); and (3) some commuters who used to take public transportation during peak hours now switch to driving, since it has become faster (modal convergence).

The triple convergence causes more and more drivers to use the improved expressway during peak hours. Therefore its traffic volumes keep rising until vehicles are once again moving at a crawl during the peak period. This outcome is almost inescapable if peak-hour traffic was already slow before the highway was improved. If traffic is going faster than a crawl on this direct route at the peak hour, its users will still get to their destinations faster than users of city streets, which are less direct and more encumbered by signals and cross-streets. Total travel times on these two types of paths will only become equalized if the limited-access roads are so overloaded that vehicles on them are moving at slower speeds than those on normal streets. Triple convergence creates just such an effect during peak hours...

...In any event, expanding roadway capacity does not fully eliminate peak-hour traffic congestion, or even reduce the intensity of traffic jams during the most crowded periods -- although those periods will be shorter. In fact, it is almost impossible to eradicate peak-hour traffic congestion on limited-access roads once it has appeared within a nonshrinking community. In theory, such congestion could be eliminated only if the capacity of those roads were increased to the extent that they could carry every single commuter simultaneously at the peak minute at, say, 35 miles per hour or faster. In nearly all metropolitan areas, that is impossible. Therefore, expansions of road capacity -- no matter how large, within the limits of feasibility -- cannot fully eliminate periods of crawling along on expressways at frustratingly low speeds."

http://www.walkablestreets.com/triple.htm
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  #1589  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 11:11 PM
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To compare Utah Valley to Zurich is a weak analogy. Zurich has used and maintained the existing rail and transit lines for some 100 plus years. The model's and efficientcies has changed, the actual track and right of ways have existed for many decades. For the most part I think that Utah cities are making some remarkable planning strides as compared to metro areas of similar size throughout the western US.

I wonder what you, UB, see as an actual solution that the rest of us do not see. Light rail and bullet trains are inevitable, but too costly at this time due to a relatively small populace and a conservitive culture. What do you forsee that can be done now that isn't in the planning stages? Front Runner is going to Payson, active farming will make purchasing right of ways Westward into the Cedar Valley a cost extrardinare, but the planning is in progress. Hopefully a bridge across Utah Lake is not a part of that planning however.

What I am saying is that efficent mass transit is always the goal, but to put off freeway expansion to quicken a cultural shift in transit will only kill industry and business, something that I can ill afford. In the mean time help is on its way.
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  #1590  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 11:17 PM
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I think one solution is to create an urban growth boundary, and implement extensive and efficient systems of alternate modes of transportation throughout our existing footprint, and create more TODs (transit oriented developments) with higher densities.

I disagree with your idea that freeway congestion will kill businesses. I actually think it would help businesses along alternate routes.
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  #1591  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanboy View Post
I think one solution is to create an urban growth boundary, and implement extensive and efficient systems of alternate modes of transportation throughout our existing footprint, and create more TODs (transit oriented developments) with higher densities.

I disagree with your idea that freeway congestion will kill businesses. I actually think it would help businesses along alternate routes.
I have no problem with Urban growth boundries. The problem is that it must be done by a county mandate. And how do you legally tell farmer Joe in Mosida Orchards that sorry, but your property exceeds a 12 mile radius from downtown so your SOL on selling it for developmental gains. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if we did however, because it would eventually force vertical housing, which most on this board support in our downtowns anyway.

About freeway congestion, if you drive into LA nowaday's and you first get into San Berardino, or any other city for that matter, what do you see? Industry, tilt-up buildings, CMU buildings 3 stories high, why do you ask? good question, it's because of the ease of putting a product on the road, (freeway's), and by-passing congestion. Alot of that contributes to urban spawl.

Last edited by Erector; Dec 15, 2009 at 5:15 PM.
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  #1592  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2009, 5:29 PM
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The article that was quoted by Urbanboy is a very interesting section of a novel that is well written, though it is consistently a fairly single sided argument. The important part of what was quoted was this section,

"...In any event, expanding roadway capacity does not fully eliminate peak-hour traffic congestion, or even reduce the intensity of traffic jams during the most crowded periods -- although those periods will be shorter. In fact, it is almost impossible to eradicate peak-hour traffic congestion on limited-access roads once it has appeared within a nonshrinking community. In theory, such congestion could be eliminated only if the capacity of those roads were increased to the extent that they could carry every single commuter simultaneously at the peak minute at, say, 35 miles per hour or faster. In nearly all metropolitan areas, that is impossible. Therefore, expansions of road capacity -- no matter how large, within the limits of feasibility -- cannot fully eliminate periods of crawling along on expressways at frustratingly low speeds."

I believe that Mr. Downs is correct that we, "...cannot fully eliminate periods of crawling along expressways at frustratingly low speeds." But it is difficult to argue that that interstate system of this country does not generally operate extremely efficiently. The delivery of goods and services in a timely manner all over this country is based on that fact. The majority of the interstate system is not plagued by traffic problems.

The personally operated automobile is not going to disappear. Any time I take my neices and nephews to a game or go for a weekly trip to the grocery store, I certainly am grateful for my vehicle. As planners, we need to find a way to adapt to that fact and not just lament the dissapearance of local rail systems. There can be well designed developments that do not reject the fact that much of the traffic will arrive by car.

This state needs a huge infusion of mass transit...and it's getting one. It is not enough but it will continue to grow and as the percentage of travelers on mass transit grows so will the system.
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  #1593  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2009, 7:45 PM
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Proactive Mass Transit

Very interesting article indeed. Good read; Good find.

Utah's mass transit infusion is much greater than most major metropolitan areas than I can think of. It is definitely something to be proud of. I see Utah as a model of being proactive to meet traffic demands. Unfortunately the area I live in, people complain about traffic, but there is always some reason why it cannot be fixed. (i.e. NIMBY's, funding, various municipal governments that cannot get along... ...the list goes on.)

Of course I do not live in Utah, so I am stating the above by what I read on this forum and other relavent documents. Chime in if I stated anything that is incorrect.
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  #1594  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2009, 2:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanboy View Post


I thought this was your cultural heritage:

Nope. I'm pretty sure my heritage is a Charlton Heston proudly waving a Toyota key.


Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanboy View Post
I think one solution is to create an urban growth boundary, and implement extensive and efficient systems of alternate modes of transportation throughout our existing footprint, and create more TODs (transit oriented developments) with higher densities.

I disagree with your idea that freeway congestion will kill businesses. I actually think it would help businesses along alternate routes.
Urban Growth Boundary = Bad, impossible to ever pass through the legislature, even controversial in Portland! Remember a little ballot prop called Oregon Measure 37 (which I voted 'yes' on, by the way)? The honest truth is Utah doesn't need a growth boundary because we develop differently than wetter climates. In Utah the city tends to "grow" fairly uniformly outward. We don't have "estate sprawl" like they have in Oregon, where any dummy with money can toss a well into the ground and build their nice 4000 sq foot mini-mansion on 5 acres, right next to 20,000 other 5-acre mansion owners who had the same idea. Oregon has some of the world's most fertile farmland, which is worth preserving. Utah is highland prairie. I'm sorry, but they could cover Tooele County with cheap Ivory homes for all I care. It ain't scenic. And anything that is scenic is already federally owned (and generally federally protected).

T.O.D.s = Good, if they are done right. A T.O.D. will never be successful through penalizing other types of development. It needs to be done through positive incentives, like less-restrictive height limits, higher densities, etc. If what anti-sprawl people say is true ("people only buy low density because that is all zoning offers") then these developments should sell themselves without any internal incentives or external penalties.

Congestion = Both. Despite L.A.'s reputation as a freeway-mecca, there are still huge blocks that lack proper high-speed access. Try going west on Wilshire from the Miracle Mile to the 101 at dinner time. Awful. If L.A. put in an underground big-dig to bypass Wilshire, I'd probably spend more money at restaurants along there because I can actually access them. Nothing says "forget it, I'm staying in tonight" like arterial gridlock. I'd support both an underground expressway and subway 100%. There's a balance we need to meet, and rarely do the scales tip too far in the direction of "not enough local traffic."
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Last edited by i-215; Dec 16, 2009 at 3:07 AM.
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  #1595  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2009, 1:20 PM
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Sign of the times: Fresh Market



Workers install permanent sign on a Fresh Market store, which used to be Albertsons, in Lehi, Friday. Salt Lake-based Associated Food Stores Inc. purchased most of the state's Albertsons from Minneapolis-based SuperValu Inc. Thirty-four former Albertsons stores opened under the Fresh Market name last month. Associated Foods was able to hire all 2,700 people who worked at Albertsons.

related: Idaho chain Ridley's Family Markets to buy 2 Orem Albertsons stores

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705352559/Idaho-chain-to-buy-Orem-Albertsons.html

OREM — Ridley's Family Markets, a family-owned supermarket chain based in Twin Falls, has agreed to purchase the two Albertsons stores in Orem from Minneapolis-based Supervalu Inc., Ridley's announced in a news release Friday...

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  #1596  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2009, 9:36 PM
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The Albertson's on 2nd South in downtown is now a Fresh Market too.
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  #1597  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2009, 1:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanboy View Post
I think one solution is to create an urban growth boundary, and implement extensive and efficient systems of alternate modes of transportation throughout our existing footprint, and create more TODs (transit oriented developments) with higher densities.

I disagree with your idea that freeway congestion will kill businesses. I actually think it would help businesses along alternate routes.
I agree. Though, I admit I don't know everything about Urban Growth Boundaries. This I do know, the Urban Growth Boundary in Portland maintains its control by water rights. I think this would work in favor in Utah. The further out you develop from existing infrastucture, the more you should pay, etc.
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  #1598  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2009, 3:27 AM
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The "freeway" in zurich is 3 lanes in each direction at most, and there is hardly ever congestion. The reason? They have other modes of transportation that are more efficient at moving large groups of people from place to place.
So if you are trying to compare Zurich to Utah County lets see them side by side. But I think we should compare Canton of Zurich for a better understanding since we are comparing Utah County instead of individual cities.

Canton of Zurich Population:
Population 1,307,567
Density 1,959 /sq mi
Area 668 sq mi
# of Freeways - 7
3 of the freeways inside the city of Zurich boarders.

Utah County Population:
Population 530,837
Density 184 /sq mi
Area 2,141 sq mi
# of Freeways - 1

So I guess I can understand why Zurich has no congestion. They have more freeways then Utah county does.
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  #1599  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2009, 6:20 AM
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Lol, they have more freeways than the state of Utah.
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  #1600  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2009, 7:05 AM
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So if you are trying to compare Zurich to Utah County lets see them side by side. But I think we should compare Canton of Zurich for a better understanding since we are comparing Utah County instead of individual cities.

Canton of Zurich Population:
Population 1,307,567
Density 1,959 /sq mi
Area 668 sq mi
# of Freeways - 7
3 of the freeways inside the city of Zurich boarders.

Utah County Population:
Population 530,837
Density 184 /sq mi
Area 2,141 sq mi
# of Freeways - 1

So I guess I can understand why Zurich has no congestion. They have more freeways then Utah county does.
I'd be interested in comparing the number of freeway lane-miles. I bet Zurich still wins, though.
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