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  #141  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Many (me included) wonder the same thing, but I understand that the counter-argument is that this would result in the loss of continuity in much of their research.
Thats a fair point.
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  #142  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 1:32 PM
DarkArconio DarkArconio is offline
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Seems like a bad move on the part of agriculture canada to frame their research as somehow being in conflict with mitigating the housing crisis? In a fight between ensuring Canadians have enough homes to live in and farming research do they really think they'll win?

NIMBYs gotta NIMBY I guess though.

Also these shadow charts tell only half the story. Shadowing the sunset is surely not even close to the same impact on agriculture as shadowing the midday sun. Maybe the solution to their concerns is low-rise density on the other side of Carling as those fields would apparently no longer be viable for crop growth?
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  #143  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 1:57 PM
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I did not state that the experiments are obsolete...I said, explicityly, that perhaps they need to move them. I also didn't say anything about it being 'easily' moved. Why are you making up arguments?
Sorry, I misunderstood exactly what you are saying. The question still stands, do you work at the experimental farm and have evidence to support your opinion (regardless of exactly what your opinion is)? I trust the opinion of the scientists doing the research over some rando on the internet.

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Originally Posted by DarkArconio View Post
Seems like a bad move on the part of agriculture canada to frame their research as somehow being in conflict with mitigating the housing crisis? In a fight between ensuring Canadians have enough homes to live in and farming research do they really think they'll win?
And how do you think Agriculture Canada would have known that there would be a housing crisis in 2023 over 100 years ago when the experimental farm was acquired in 1886?
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  #144  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 2:37 PM
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Rob greenhouses of their passive heat?!? The greenhouses to the South would be touched by a shadow for a handful of minutes just as the sun is setting in June and July, just as they would be now by the existing building on site, which also blocks the sun as it sets on the horizon.
OMG wow. THESE greenhouses half a mile away? I thought we were talking about stuff on the NW edge.

That's probably something like 0.01% of the daily heat they'd be robbed of. Easily inside the acceptable error margin for any experiment.
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  #145  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 5:53 PM
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Update from Leiper on Kitchissipi Times. Still not in agreement, but enough improvements made to vote in favour.

Quote:
Councillors Corner: Two new big development projects coming to the Kitchissippi area
BY EDITORKITCHISSIPPICOM POSTED ON AUGUST 13, 2023

Submitted by Jeff Leiper, Kitchissippi ward councillor


In local planning news, the Taggart proposal for two high-rise buildings at the corner of Parkdale and Carling is expected to move to a vote at Planning and Housing Committee on August 16. I still find the proposal too dense, however, with pressure from myself and the Civic Hospital Neighbourhood Association, these two towers are now better offset, and the tower closest to low-rise housing has been significantly shortened.

The transition, in my opinion, is still too abrupt; that said, Planning Staff have indicated the current proposal meets the policies for development in the province and city. While I don’t like the development, I can’t argue with staff’s assessment, and for that reason I am likely to vote “yes” at committee.

For a more detailed examination of the situation with 1081 Carling, check out the ward website.


--SNIP--
https://kitchissippi.com/2023/08/13/...hissippi-area/
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  #146  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Sorry, I misunderstood exactly what you are saying. The question still stands, do you work at the experimental farm and have evidence to support your opinion (regardless of exactly what your opinion is)? I trust the opinion of the scientists doing the research over some rando on the internet.
This is a discussion forum, wasn't aware you have to be employed by the specific topic of the thread to have an opinion...let it be known we now can't discuss any building unless you live 5 feet away or are employed by the developer.

/s

Additionally, I don't think I actually expressed an opinion on the value of the experimental farms work...I expressed an opinion that *I* would like to see the experimental farm continue its work but find solutions that work within the context of the city and the year 2023. Do those options have a cost...yep...so lets here what they are so that tax payers can make informed 'opinions' on the value of the greenhouses staying at that exact location vs the need of the city to intensify rapidly to address our sprawl and affordability issues.
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  #147  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 6:12 PM
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The existing building on this site also shadows the greenhouses for a couple of minutes after 8 in the summer months. An 8 story office building, a 27 story tower...even a 60 story tower will all have the same effect at that distance when the sun gets low.

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  #148  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by skyscraperaccount View Post
This is a discussion forum, wasn't aware you have to be employed by the specific topic of the thread to have an opinion...let it be known we now can't discuss any building unless you live 5 feet away or are employed by the developer.
It is fine to discuss and question things. Unfortunately we live in an age where people are spreading misinformation without understanding the issue at hand. Looking back, I see I over reacted to your post, and I apologize for that. However, I am not convinced that it would be easy to relocate the farm without sacrificing over 100 years of empirical data for future research.

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Additionally, I don't think I actually expressed an opinion on the value of the experimental farms work...I expressed an opinion that *I* would like to see the experimental farm continue its work but find solutions that work within the context of the city and the year 2023. Do those options have a cost...yep...so lets here what they are so that tax payers can make informed 'opinions' on the value of the greenhouses staying at that exact location vs the need of the city to intensify rapidly to address our sprawl and affordability issues.
The issue of housing affordability needs to be balanced against food security. If the research done at the experimental farm can help alleviate that, IMHO, it is certainly worth sacrificing a few hundred housing units, which could be relocated to another location in the city. Its not like our housing shortage is caused by there being a shortage of developable land, like in some cities.
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  #149  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
The issue of housing affordability needs to be balanced against food security. If the research done at the experimental farm can help alleviate that, IMHO, it is certainly worth sacrificing a few hundred housing units, which could be relocated to another location in the city. Its not like our housing shortage is caused by there being a shortage of developable land, like in some cities.
I struggle to believe removing a few stories from this tower (all that is being discussed) could have any form of measurable impact on the success of food security research in the experimental farm. This is far from the first and should not be the last tower build on the edges of the farm.

If the impacts are indeed that high, then we need to re-evaluate our agriculture research strategy as farming vs housing should not be in contention in a country of this size. Surely there are dozens if not hundreds of examples of experimental research farms across the world that don't require caving to local NIMBYs who don't like dense housing. We have a whole greenbelt in this city with much less density around it after all.
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  #150  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 7:18 PM
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I struggle to believe removing a few stories from this tower (all that is being discussed) could have any form of measurable impact on the success of food security research in the experimental farm. This is far from the first and should not be the last tower build on the edges of the farm.

If the impacts are indeed that high, then we need to re-evaluate our agriculture research strategy as farming vs housing should not be in contention in a country of this size. Surely there are dozens if not hundreds of examples of experimental research farms across the world that don't require caving to local NIMBYs who don't like dense housing. We have a whole greenbelt in this city with much less density around it after all.
I don't know, but I suspect that while one tower won't make that much of a difference, that one tower could lead to many towers all along Carling, especially once the Civic Hospital campus is vacated, and the cumulative effect wouldn't be insignificant, so they are nipping it in the bud before it becomes a problem.

Just a guess on my part though, so take it for what it is worth. We may also be overlooking something that is more obvious to them. I would appreciate the input from someone who is more in the know.
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  #151  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2023, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
It is fine to discuss and question things. Unfortunately we live in an age where people are spreading misinformation without understanding the issue at hand. Looking back, I see I over reacted to your post, and I apologize for that. However, I am not convinced that it would be easy to relocate the farm without sacrificing over 100 years of empirical data for future research.



The issue of housing affordability needs to be balanced against food security. If the research done at the experimental farm can help alleviate that, IMHO, it is certainly worth sacrificing a few hundred housing units, which could be relocated to another location in the city. Its not like our housing shortage is caused by there being a shortage of developable land, like in some cities.
Thus why I said leave the experimental farm where it is...I have no reason to believe it needs to move, and lets hear what they need to adjust their research (be it onsite or moving some of it offsite) to accommodate the city's needs as well. The Feds can't just blindly close their eyes to the needs of the city either and new approaches might be needed to accommodate valuable research. I think we actually agree and are simply stating things in different ways.
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  #152  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2023, 3:13 AM
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Maybe the experimental farm should embrace the growth of the city and install greenhouses or other structures in impacted areas for researching and advancing urban, all-season farming? Could lead to interesting employment initiatives, also.

Arguing to maintain rural conditions for agricultural research in the centre of a major city seems … wasteful.
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  #153  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2023, 1:03 PM
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I'd like to see a local MP stand up and make the City, Province and Farm have a conversation, but our local MPs are all impotent.

McKenna was the only one since 2015 that had some leadership qualities, helping to move the hospital site, bringing LAC and OPL together for the library, fund the WC Bridge... But now she's gone.
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  #154  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2023, 2:04 PM
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I'd like to see a local MP stand up and make the City, Province and Farm have a conversation, but our local MPs are all impotent.

McKenna was the only one since 2015 that had some leadership qualities, helping to move the hospital site, bringing LAC and OPL together for the library, fund the WC Bridge... But now she's gone.
I agree that the City and the Farm should sit down together and discuss this, but I don't see what value adding the Province to the mix adds.
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  #155  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2023, 2:43 PM
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I agree that the City and the Farm should sit down together and discuss this, but I don't see what value adding the Province to the mix adds.
The Province has rubber stamping powers. They approve anything by shouting "housing crisis". They even justify straight-up corruption with "housing crisis". They argue against basic human rights, like back-up power to run lights and elevators, by using the excuse "housing crisis".

Province needs to be at the table to understand the implications and be forced to comply if the Farm is protected for food security over housing crisis.
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  #156  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2023, 3:09 PM
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The Province has rubber stamping powers. They approve anything by shouting "housing crisis". They even justify straight-up corruption with "housing crisis". They argue against basic human rights, like back-up power to run lights and elevators, by using the excuse "housing crisis".

Province needs to be at the table to understand the implications and be forced to comply if the Farm is protected for food security over housing crisis.
My fear is that if they are included, they will gum up the discussions by constantly screaming "housing crisis."
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  #157  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2023, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Harley613 View Post
The existing building on this site also shadows the greenhouses for a couple of minutes after 8 in the summer months. An 8 story office building, a 27 story tower...even a 60 story tower will all have the same effect at that distance when the sun gets low.
Which program are you using to do this? I'm tempted to plug some trees and silos into it. And maybe see the shadows of the Civic at the same time.
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  #158  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2023, 3:36 PM
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My fear is that if they are included, they will gum up the discussions by constantly screaming "housing crisis."
Height restrictions downtown under the NCC have been bullet proof. We could do something similar for the Farm (if it is in fact necessary) to bypass the Province.
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  #159  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2023, 11:13 AM
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Denley: Let's be bold and turn the Central Experimental Farm into a boon for all of Ottawa
Ottawa's Central Experimental Farm is bigger than New York’s Central Park, but offers only a tiny fraction of that famous park’s public value.

Author of the article:Randall Denley
Published Aug 15, 2023 • Last Updated 17 hours ago • 3 minute read

Some neighbours clearly don’t like the size, location or design of the project, but it’s just so hard to be against housing these days, especially when a proposal conforms to the city’s Official Plan.

But what about this? Federal soil scientists say the shadows will reduce daylight enough to affect their work on part of the farm. That has led to speculation that other potential developments along Carling Avenue could eventually limit the farm’s utility as a research site, threatening its future.

Ah, the famous soil science card. It was enough to stop the new Civic Hospital campus from being built on prime Experimental Farm land, but it looks like it won’t work this time.

The shady plan is almost certain to be recommended by planning committee. Then it will go to city council for approval. Even Coun. Jeff Leiper, who chairs the planning committee and represents the affected ward, has reluctantly agreed to it, pointing to provincial rules that leave the city powerless to say no.

So the dreaded shadows will descend. If that does limit the Farm’s value as a soil science site, so much the better. It’s time to turn this anachronism into something that benefits the entire city.

While popular with neighbouring dog walkers and cyclists, the farm is just a lost opportunity for the rest of us. Here we have a 960-acre open space in the central area of our city, a site that is bigger than New York’s Central Park, but offers only a tiny fraction of that famous park’s public value.

And yet, the Experimental Farm has its fans. As a city, Ottawa is remarkably undemanding when it comes to our beloved green space. We see the only two ingredients as space and greenness. The Farm certainly offers those, but remarkably little else.

The Farm’s buildings, gardens and the Arboretum are a good start to something that could be much more useful, but the rest of it? It’s no more attractive than any farmer’s field. Any value it does have lies in the novelty of being oddly situated.

Central Park, the natural heart of New York City, was created in an act of civic imagination back in 1858, 10 years before the Farm was created as an act of the federal government.

While the Farm is mostly a flat and unappealing site, that can be changed. According to the Central Park Conservancy, workers moved nearly five million cubic yards of stone, earth, and topsoil, built 36 bridges and arches, and planted 500,000 trees, shrubs, and vines. The landscapes were man-made and all built by hand.

As many will know, the 853-acre Central Park is full of attractions including a lake, a nature sanctuary, a visitor centre, playgrounds, ball fields, and a great lawn. It’s a place that draws people in by offering something more than trees, grass and park benches.

Compare that to soil science work, which no doubt has its virtues, but could potentially be conducted elsewhere. That idea is unattractive to soil scientists, but it’s difficult to argue that it’s the highest and best use for this site. Maybe in 1886, but not now.

A bold idea like creating the major urban park that Ottawa has always lacked would face obstacles. First, boldness is not our primary civic trait. Second, the federal government owns the site and has not displayed a great deal of interest in using its land to improve the country’s capital.

Still, it would be nice to see people champion a big, city-building idea. It would be a much better use of our collective energy than debating apartment towers, which will almost inevitably line Carling and shade the Farm. Rather than lament that, let’s do something better.

Randall Denley is an Ottawa political commentator and author. Contact him at [email protected]
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  #160  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2023, 1:34 PM
Ottawacurious Ottawacurious is offline
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Height restrictions downtown under the NCC have been bullet proof. We could do something similar for the Farm (if it is in fact necessary) to bypass the Province.
I think someone showed up above that any height will cause shadows...even trees will cause shadows

I started thinking about this differently - where else could condos/apartments go up in that area?

The west side of that stretch of Carling has far more opportunities for condos than the east stretch/directly across from their office buildings. This section/west side would also have greater impact on the farm than the East Side toward the future hospital.

Carling addresses - 1129, 1127 (houses), 1111 (parking indigo), retirement home (already built), 1087 (under discussion), Civic (few spots in the front that could be converted to towers potentially?), and then two blocks of houses that I doubt would turn into condos and then you are really out of the zone where shadows should make any difference. Thoughts?
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