Scotiabank Centre

[Empire]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Has the Forum actually been used much for mass-entertainment events for which it has been undercapacity? My impression is that events such as these tend to go to Scotiabank Centre.

I do think an argument could be made for increased capacity based on the influx of residential buildings in the area, but IMHO focus should still be on the downtown to host major events. However, I don't think that the argument for increased capacity should not be centred around the potential for hosting the Mooseheads temporarily while their facility is overhauled.

I also think it's important to maintain the architectural integrity of the Forum, as it's an important part of the city's history. If you just want a large capacity arena that blows up the old Forum, then why not just create a clean-sheet design on another more-favourable spot?

Historically the forum has been used for overflow when the Metro Centre was unavailable. Reducing the seating capacity reduces the potential to hold large events. We already have an example of occupying prime real estate with limited function in the Sportsplex, (seating 2000). Can't really think of a notable event recently at the Sportsplex other than the odd country show. I would like to see the Forum preserved and redeveloped with a growing population as part of the go forward plan. The Forum as it currently exists is not suitable to host large events due to lack of amenities.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Empire

Historically the forum has been used for overflow when the Metro Centre was unavailable. Reducing the seating capacity reduces the potential to hold large events. We already have an example of occupying prime real estate with limited function in the Sportsplex, (seating 2000). Can't really think of a notable event recently at the Sportsplex other than the odd country show. I would like to see the Forum preserved and redeveloped with a growing population as part of the go forward plan. The Forum as it currently exists is not suitable to host large events due to lack of amenities.

Fair points, but according to Wikipedia, the Dartmouth Sportsplex has a capacity of 3000 for hockey and 3500 for stage events. Still not enough, but higher than 2000.

The Forum's capacity for hockey (again, from Wikipedia) is 5796, however IIRC the reason the capacity must be reduced is due to the requirements of modern building codes, which weren't a consideration in 1927, when it was built.

Regardless, the main point is that the Scotiabank Centre's location shouldn't be compromised by interim plan requirements. Suitable but inconvenient workarounds should be in place to maintain the goal of having the best facility in the best location, regardless of all other factors.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Regardless, the main point is that the Scotiabank Centre's location shouldn't be compromised by interim plan requirements. Suitable but inconvenient workarounds should be in place to maintain the goal of having the best facility in the best location, regardless of all other factors.

Agreed.

I wonder if the city/province would consider subsidizing operations of the Mooseheads/Thunderbirds for a few years if they play at the Forum while the Scotiabank Centre site is redeveloped?

[Empire]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Fair points, but according to Wikipedia, the Dartmouth Sportsplex has a capacity of 3000 for hockey and 3500 for stage events. Still not enough, but higher than 2000.

The Forum's capacity for hockey (again, from Wikipedia) is 5796, however IIRC the reason the capacity must be reduced is due to the requirements of modern building codes, which weren't a consideration in 1927, when it was built.

Regardless, the main point is that the Scotiabank Centre's location shouldn't be compromised by interim plan requirements. Suitable but inconvenient workarounds should be in place to maintain the goal of having the best facility in the best location, regardless of all other factors.

How many seats could be added to the Scotiabank Centre in its current location?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Empire

How many seats could be added to the Scotiabank Centre in its current location?

I would imagine this depends on an east/west or north/south orientation.

Personally, I would not just add seats. I would blow up the entire block and start afresh.

If the orientation was east/west, I think you could fit an NHL sized arena in there.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would imagine this depends on an east/west or north/south orientation.

Personally, I would not just add seats. I would blow up the entire block and start afresh.

If the orientation was east/west, I think you could fit an NHL sized arena in there.

Tear down the whole block. You could then fit 15,000+ seats in potentially. Add the arts hub to the Argyle side of the complex. May need a bit more height...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would imagine this depends on an east/west or north/south orientation.

Personally, I would not just add seats. I would blow up the entire block and start afresh.

If the orientation was east/west, I think you could fit an NHL sized arena in there.

Regardless of all other factors, this is the best plan IMHO. While it seems more practical on the surface to consider options with minimal impact to the trade centre building, perhaps the only way to do it right while providing some future proofing is to blow it all up and start from scratch. It will not get any easier to do this as time passes...

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Empire

Tear down the whole block. You could then fit 15,000+ seats in potentially. Add the arts hub to the Argyle side of the complex. May need a bit more height...

Adding capacity to the current Metro Centre doesn't address the current issues with concourse and amenities. Those will require significant upgrades if the building is expected to handle nearly a third more people for specific events.

Option is either to massively renovate the current building, demolish and rebuild at current site, or purpose-build new elsewhere. Simply adding seats isn't an option.

Originally Posted by Empire

Historically the forum has been used for overflow when the Metro Centre was unavailable. Reducing the seating capacity reduces the potential to hold large events. We already have an example of occupying prime real estate with limited function in the Sportsplex, (seating 2000). Can't really think of a notable event recently at the Sportsplex other than the odd country show. I would like to see the Forum preserved and redeveloped with a growing population as part of the go forward plan. The Forum as it currently exists is not suitable to host large events due to lack of amenities.

I don't see an issue with one venue hosting smaller events and one venue hosting larger events. The crossover in potential for shows to use either/or is slim, I would imagine.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Adding capacity to the current Metro Centre doesn't address the current issues with concourse and amenities. Those will require significant upgrades if the building is expected to handle nearly a third more people for specific events.

Option is either to massively renovate the current building, demolish and rebuild at current site, or purpose-build new elsewhere. Simply adding seats isn't an option.

100% agree. Demolish and rebuild. If you are going for 15-16,000 seats, you need improved and better concessions and more washrooms, many more washrooms.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Empire:
Tear down the whole block. You could then fit 15,000+ seats in potentially. Add the arts hub to the Argyle side of the complex. May need a bit more height...

Originally Posted by JHikka

Adding capacity to the current Metro Centre doesn't address the current issues with concourse and amenities. Those will require significant upgrades if the building is expected to handle nearly a third more people for specific events.

BTW we are on the same page. I am suggesting tearing down the whole block (Scotiabank Centre + old Trade Centre) with a complete rebuild to achieve 15,000+ seats. As mentioned by others, the longer dimension should run east/west to acheive a full upper bowl. Both the Scotiabank Centre and World Trade Centre outgrew design capacity in approx. 25 yrs.

Current Scotiabank Centre & former WTC block:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6482774,-63.5762007,221m/data=!3m1!1e3

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I don't see an issue with one venue hosting smaller events and one venue hosting larger events. The crossover in potential for shows to use either/or is slim, I would imagine.

FWIW, I've attended concerts at the Metro/Scotiabank Centre where only 1/2 or 1/3 of the lower bowl was used, so there has been crossover.

[someone123]

That whole area could use a redo:

- New arena on full footprint of that block with better aesthetics and urban design that fronts onto Argyle
- Complete Argyle streetscaping running to Duke; "entertainment district" feel with urban design for Argyle and above
- Overhaul Grand Parade with one goal being to make it a better outdoor event space with better pedestrian access

[Keith P.]

The problem with suggestions that you demo both the arena and the old WTCC site is that the latter is privately owned. As I noted in a previous post, HRM had the chance to acquire it a few years ago and said no. HRM or the province would need to expropriate it.

If you look at overhead pics of the arena it is a very tight fit between Duke and Carmichael Sts. Assuming the WTCC building is untouchable because it is privately owned, I think the only way to expand on the existing arena site is to spill it over onto those two streets and Brunswick somehow. That might not be impossible.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Empire

If you were to add an upper bowl to the ends of Scotiabank Centre without removing the roof (centre main box trusses) you would need to expand over Duke and Carmichael. This would likely only be an upper bowl straight up and not wrap-around. You would also have to remove the skyboxes as they work with a smaller venue restricting sitelines but not for a multi million dollar retrofit. The additional seating would likely only add ~2000 for 12,595, well below the 15,000 benchmark.

The current amenities are inadequate for additional seats. No restaurants, bars and potentially no skyboxes. The other lacking element is an appropriate press box. Temp. staging and scaffolding have been used for years.

repost...the above is opinion only, so perhaps there is a method to add 5000 seats to the existing structure?

[MonctonRad]

I am concerned how an overhang over the adjacent streets would look. I think it would be displeasing, and should be avoided at all costs.

It would not address limitations to the concourse, and deficiencies to washrooms, concessions, and, as you say, the press box.

It is unfair to make comparisons with the Avenir Centre (which is only four years old), but TSN loved the fact that broadcast facilities at the Avenir Centre were essentially "plug and play." They had broadcast spaces off the concourse on both sides of the arena at centre ice overlooking the rink surface. It made their job infinitely easier. They were very enthusiastic.

A complete demo and rebuild is necessary. I'm sure the trade centre could be repurchased (if the price is right). Using the entire block would also make it easier to include the Grand Parade as an ancillary outdoor events venue for major events and tournaments like the World Juniors and the Memorial Cup, including such things as a fan zone, big screen, stage and food trucks. Argyle between Duke and Carmichael could be pedestrianized to better integrate the arena with the Grand Parade.

Being able to integrate an outdoor events space into an adjacent arena can be very important. Again, the Avenir Centre does this to great effect. The plaza has a refrigerated ice surface, a stage, parking for food trucks and fire pits to keep warm.



The only way to accomplish all this is to demolish and rebuild.

[q12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Being able to integrate an outdoor events space into an adjacent arena can be very important. Again, the Avenir Centre does this to great effect. The plaza has a refrigerated ice surface, a stage, parking for food trucks and fire pits to keep warm.

The only way to accomplish all this is to demolish and rebuild.

Halifax didn't need any of this. You basically walk right out of Scotiabank Centre and the bars and walkable streets are right there. Not to mention Rogers Square at the new Convention Centre which had food trucks, TVs, etc.









There really isn't a better atmosphere outside an arena then what you'll find outside the current Scotiabank Centre, which is why it's current location is perfect. Halifax already has the massive outdoor Emera Oval up the street to skate on.

Moncton did a great job with it's arena and outdoor space, but it's never going to be Downtown Halifax which is on a whole other level and an attraction all on it's own. Downtown was alive all around Scotiabank Centre during the World Juniors, it was something special.

[q12]

How about this waterfront site next to Bishops Landing where I had proposed a football stadium awhile back:

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The problem with suggestions that you demo both the arena and the old WTCC site is that the latter is privately owned. As I noted in a previous post, HRM had the chance to acquire it a few years ago and said no. HRM or the province would need to expropriate it.

Clearly they should have bought it but I don't think in practice it would be that big of a hurdle. It's an older building and I think it was bought by a developer. They'd likely sell it back to the city and the arena could be built when the leases expire (unlikely a new arena project would happen in a timeframe shorter than 5-10 years anyway).

I think often the discussions of "roadblocks" in Halifax make the problems sound bigger than they are and undervalue the relative importance of finding the right site (millions per year of the life of a stadium or arena, with Scotiabank approaching its 50th anniversary) even if it's more complicated. Another similar example is around the Wanderers stadium. There really isn't much around there that would be hard or expensive to move in the scheme of a major long-term civic project.

[someone123]

Another point, looking at the area. It seems unlikely to me that all of the former WTCC footprint is covered by a viewplane based on where other towers are located. So you could probably fit more floors of space toward the front of the complex. This is another point on the side of redeveloping this property and it could be integrated into an arena project. I would not be surprised if this is what the current owner has in mind in the long run.

[Corker]

I too would love to see a complete re-build of the Scotiabank Centre into a larger modern facility.

To re-iterate Keith's point earlier - the former WTCC was sold in 2016 to George Armoyan for $13.5 million, an unfortunate lack of foresight by HRM, the Province and Events East.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...labi-kousoulis-halifax-armoyan-1.3712191

The convention part of the facility is being used for the Lighthouse Arts Centre, which is nice. The Examiner has a great breakdown of their proposed $10.5 million capital investment for that renovation (item #4 in the article) from a few years ago:
https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/uncategor...s-playing-halifax-council-like-a-fiddle/

This would suggest there won't be a demolition of the WTCC in the near term. I am certain Armoyan would be happy to sell the building back, for a healthy profit, but in doing so the city and Province also bear some responsibility to find a new home for the arts organization (hello mid-sized performing arts centre!).

Regarding view planes, I suspect a new facility could go higher based on the fact the CIBC and TD buildings are directly below it. However, an expansion over Carmichael Street would be a no-go as it would obstruct the view from the Town Clock to the harbour.

I do think the current location is best. If an alternative downtown location were needed I would say:
- The ship has sailed on Cogswell, that re-development is too far along to change directions now.
- There was talk some time ago about the Casino moving elsewhere. That doesn't make sense to me but if they did, that location may be wide enough and expanded out into the harbour a bit farther to accomodate a new arena.
- The only other location I see large enough downtown is the train tracks and parking lot by Pier 21-22 (or perhaps the Superstore & parking lot & tracks). Transportation wise that is getting too deep into the south end... unless it was done in conjunction with a new south end 3rd crossing and commuter rail terminal (I can dream).