West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I might have it go down through the middle of Hull after St-Rédempteur as opposed to having it hug Autoroute 5 where basically no one lives or works.

There is a MUP corridor that crosses that part of Hull semi-diagonally called the Sentier-de-l'Île. It goes roughly from St-Rédempteur to the corner of Allumettières and Maisonneuve, and then across the Alexandra Bridge. Might be a good option.

To the west, looking at his plan I would put the southward route along Wilfrid-Lavigne instead of Samuel-Edey as the east side of Edey is golf courses and brush. No one lives there or will live there any time soon.

Wilfrid-Lavigne is built up on both sides and if your line turns south at Wilfrid-Lavigne and Allumettières you get a better chance of drawing people from the built-up areas to the north of Allumettières.

Yes, I was thinking that it could easily go down the Sentier de l'Île which was an old railway corridor, which shortens the route:



That actually falls in line with this old plan. As a first phase, this is line could ease the bottleneck to Aylmer, but the nice thing is that the most expensive section into Ottawa is also useable for the Rapibus conversion, in fact it will just mirror the upcoming Rapibus service to Lyon Station in a more efficient manner.

[agl]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

There is nothing urbanish about Aylmer Road, it goes past 3 golf courses and sprawling estates in a distance comparable to crossing the Greenbelt. Running LRT here is a bit of a one-trick pony to get commuters from western Aylmer to the Portage district and then on to Ottawa.

For Gatineau's sake, an LRT project should have a bit of city building that ties the older parts of the city and makes use of existing commercial areas. Wrightville is like Gatineau's Vanier.

Here's the thing though: there's nothing urbanish about anywhere in Aylmer except a short section of Rue Principale/Aylmer Road. If you're talking city-building, wouldn't a connection between old Aylmer and downtown Hull via the most direct route that also boasts the highest potential of high density development and everything else mentioned by Aylmer make the most sense?

The main point about rapid transit is that it should be, well, rapid. To try and combine all the neighourhoods into one line as proposed is an incredible disservice to anyone living west of Vanier Road that's headed downtown. Someone hopping on the tramway/bus at the corner of Samuel-Eddy and rue Aylmer would have an 17km meandering route through le Plateau and Wrightville before ending up at Place du Portage, vs. a 10km trip along Taché, with no twists and turns.

I still believe the ideal solution is two lines, and am all for the Plateau-Gamelin-Sacre-Coeur trajectory you propose for one of those lines, though unfortunately I doubt there`ll be anything in the budget for tunneling.

[agl]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

I really don't get this obsession with a Tache/Aylmer alignment. As Kitchissippi said, there is nothing urban about the area until you reach Samuel-Edey. LRT there has little potential for ridership growth or TOD unless those golf courses are sold to developers, which I doubt will ever happen.

Essentially you'll end up with a tramway that adds little value over bus lanes. Kitchissippi's alignment on the other hand will travel through areas with higher density, growth potential and actual destinations (i.e. hospital, commercial areas).

I would be fine if the resulting plan is a fancy tramway through Plateau-Wrightville, provided there is continued bus service in a dedicated lane along Taché and the city:
(1) addresses the lane changeover slowdowns at Champlain Bridge;
(2) creates a transit corridor south of UQO to Terrasses and potentially beyond;
(3) improves the route into and around downtown Ottawa, because the proposed routing post-LRT will be a gong show.

By the time they're ready to implement a plan, quick charging electric artic buses will be more readily available to address noise concerns that will certainly come up in Val-Tétreau.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Well, Taché has the university, Val Tétreau, The connaught development, Quebec's largest residential development at Ambassade Champlain (between Allan Rd and Chateau Cartier). Several of the golf courses are looking to sell as well. It also has the benefit of being the fastest and most direct route, including for the north of Aylmer. It's also not an either/or - With a Chemin d'Aylmer route, you could have a spur up Saint Raymond up to Plateau.

The university, admittedly, would be great to have along the LRT route and Quartier Ambassade Champlain would be a nice addition as well, but, overall, the Aylmer/Tache alignment just doesn't seem like the optimal route for ridership. If those golf courses do indeed get sold and redeveloped, then that would be a different story.

I might have it go down through the middle of Hull after St-Rédempteur as opposed to having it hug Autoroute 5 where basically no one lives or works.

There is a MUP corridor that crosses that part of Hull semi-diagonally called the Sentier-de-l'Île. It goes roughly from St-Rédempteur to the corner of Allumettières and Maisonneuve, and then across the Alexandra Bridge. Might be a good option.

To the west, looking at his plan I would put the southward route along Wilfrid-Lavigne instead of Samuel-Edey as the east side of Edey is golf courses and brush. No one lives there or will live there any time soon.

Wilfrid-Lavigne is built up on both sides and if your line turns south at Wilfrid-Lavigne and Allumettières you get a better chance of drawing people from the built-up areas to the north of Allumettières.

Agreed. There are definitely a few tweaks I would make to Kitchissippi's alignment, but I think it's generally a better alignment than the aforementioned alternative. I would also prefer the Sentier-de-l'Île and Wilfrid-Lavigne options.

Another thing that comes to mind is the Gamelin section. Unless that section is tunneled, it would be an extremely tight fit to run LRT at grade through there, not to mention that it would invite a lot of push back from residents, given the high number of private residences lining the street. Maybe Saint-Raymond would be better? Although that would tag on a couple extra minutes to the commute.

I would be fine if the resulting plan is a fancy tramway through Plateau-Wrightville, provided there is continued bus service in a dedicated lane along Taché and the city:
(1) addresses the lane changeover slowdowns at Champlain Bridge;
(2) creates a transit corridor south of UQO to Terrasses and potentially beyond;
(3) improves the route into and around downtown Ottawa, because the proposed routing post-LRT will be a gong show.

By the time they're ready to implement a plan, quick charging electric artic buses will be more readily available to address noise concerns that will certainly come up in Val-Tétreau.

That's the thing. I can't see Val-Tetreau residents or any other residents along Chemin Aylmer being supportive of LRT on an already congested corridor. Bus lanes are probably the best option for now.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by agl

The main point about rapid transit is that it should be, well, rapid. To try and combine all the neighourhoods into one line as proposed is an incredible disservice to anyone living west of Vanier Road that's headed downtown. Someone hopping on the tramway/bus at the corner of Samuel-Eddy and rue Aylmer would have an 17km meandering route through le Plateau and Wrightville before ending up at Place du Portage, vs. a 10km trip along Taché, with no twists and turns.

I measured the Plateau route, the difference is about 4.5 km, so let's say 15 vs 10 km. At an average running speed of 50kph that's a difference of 6 minutes. If, however the Taché route runs at a 40kph because of interaction with traffic and the Plateau route runs at 60+kph with little or no conflict with traffic largely because of grade separation, the difference is nil or better. Then there's reliability and susceptibility to vehicular collisions.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by agl

Here's the thing though: there's nothing urbanish about anywhere in Aylmer except a short section of Rue Principale/Aylmer Road. If you're talking city-building, wouldn't a connection between old Aylmer and downtown Hull via the most direct route that also boasts the highest potential of high density development and everything else mentioned by Aylmer make the most sense?

The main point about rapid transit is that it should be, well, rapid. To try and combine all the neighourhoods into one line as proposed is an incredible disservice to anyone living west of Vanier Road that's headed downtown. Someone hopping on the tramway/bus at the corner of Samuel-Eddy and rue Aylmer would have an 17km meandering route through le Plateau and Wrightville before ending up at Place du Portage, vs. a 10km trip along Taché, with no twists and turns.

I still believe the ideal solution is two lines, and am all for the Plateau-Gamelin-Sacre-Coeur trajectory you propose for one of those lines, though unfortunately I doubt there`ll be anything in the budget for tunneling.

Then you have missed the point of having a train to begin with. Areas of Potential development are best served by buses while dense areas with strong ridership are best suited for LRT or Subways. This is why having a route go past 3 golf courses makes no sense. If the route goes the way Kitchissippi has it the the route would still go through better dense areas in Plateau and Hull where there will be better ridership throughout the day. Doing it like this will make the Traain cheaper to operate than going down a less dense Alymer and Tache roads where they are less dense causing it to be more expensive to operate.

The fact you don't understand this is mind boggling.

Here are examples of a Metro that serves existing ridership and not Potential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Metro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway

[Horus]

Before everyone goes off the rails (heh...had to do that ) over the potential LRT route passing golf courses on Aylmer road, it's important to remember that two of the courses are on opposite sides of the street from each other and the third is immediately adjacent to one of the others. It's not like there is a continuous 10km stretch of undevelopable golf course land in that area.

Furthermore, there has already been some higher density development on the Chateau Cartier property (see here) and between CC and the bridge (Chateau Golf complex here)) so it's not like this is a compete wasteland. This is in addition to the proposed high density development on the west

There's probably as much 'wasted' and undevelopable space on the Confederation line West between Dominion and Cleary stations as there would be in this section of the Aylmer LRT. Certainly this is less 'wasteful' than the LRT east crossing the greenbelt between Montreal road and Jeanne D'Arc.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by agl

Here's the thing though: there's nothing urbanish about anywhere in Aylmer except a short section of Rue Principale/Aylmer Road. If you're talking city-building, wouldn't a connection between old Aylmer and downtown Hull via the most direct route that also boasts the highest potential of high density development and everything else mentioned by Aylmer make the most sense?

The main point about rapid transit is that it should be, well, rapid. To try and combine all the neighourhoods into one line as proposed is an incredible disservice to anyone living west of Vanier Road that's headed downtown. Someone hopping on the tramway/bus at the corner of Samuel-Eddy and rue Aylmer would have an 17km meandering route through le Plateau and Wrightville before ending up at Place du Portage, vs. a 10km trip along Taché, with no twists and turns.

I still believe the ideal solution is two lines, and am all for the Plateau-Gamelin-Sacre-Coeur trajectory you propose for one of those lines, though unfortunately I doubt there`ll be anything in the budget for tunneling.

I agree with what you're saying and want to add that the primary purpose of this LRT as proposed is to improve commuting routes from residential Aylmer to the business and employment nodes in Hull and Ottawa. Perhaps this is akin to using a sledgehammer to drive carpet nails, but the intention is to create something that is frequent, fast and reliable in all conditions - something that the current (and, for all intents and purposes, permanently) constrained road network cannot provide.

It's similar to the philosophy that generated the RapiBus system serving the eastern sectors of Gatineau. The east is constrained by river crossings. The west is constrained by Gatineau Park crossings. Had RapiBus in the east been in proposal now, under the current political conditions, I'd bet LRT would have been on the table there too.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Horus

Before everyone goes off the rails (heh...had to do that ) over the potential LRT route passing golf courses on Aylmer road, it's important to remember that two of the courses are on opposite sides of the street from each other and the third is immediately adjacent to one of the others. It's not like there is a continuous 10km stretch of undevelopable golf course land in that area.

Furthermore, there has already been some higher density development on the Chateau Cartier property (see here) and between CC and the bridge (Chateau Golf complex here)) so it's not like this is a compete wasteland. This is in addition to the proposed high density development on the west

There's probably as much 'wasted' and undevelopable space on the Confederation line West between Dominion and Cleary stations as there would be in this section of the Aylmer LRT. Certainly this is less 'wasteful' than the LRT east crossing the greenbelt between Montreal road and Jeanne D'Arc.

Go re-read my post my last post because you obviously dont understand that during the day there isnt enough ridership from Aylmer to justify LRT on Aylmer and Tache roads. The better denser areas are along Kittchissippi's proposed route and even the STO knows this. The study they did showed exactly what im telling you. LRT to Orleans makes sense since they have higher ridership numbers throughout the day which makes up for being on the other side of the greenbelt.

For the LRT to be effective, it needs to be used all day not just in peak hours and the current proposed route wont get enough off peak hour numbers to justify that rout

[Horus]

The STO study inexplicably failed to account for transit trips terminating in Ottawa, which is not an insignificant volume of trips.

Regardless, other than (maybe) the Hull portion of the suggested route, there's little reason to believe that either route is going to have any significant off-peak usage, particularly in the Aylmer-bound direction.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I measured the Plateau route, the difference is about 4.5 km, so let's say 15 vs 10 km. At an average running speed of 50kph that's a difference of 6 minutes. If, however the Taché route runs at a 40kph because of interaction with traffic and the Plateau route runs at 60+kph with little or no conflict with traffic largely because of grade separation, the difference is nil or better. Then there's reliability and susceptibility to vehicular collisions.

Let's also not forget there are lots of places in the Plateau-Wrightville areas that Aylmer people want to get to: high schools, colleges, a cinema, a hospital, les Galeries de Hull, a rehab centre, etc.

I don't think Taché is an illogical routing, and ideally we'd do both Plateau and Taché, but if we can only do one, I'm on board for Wrightville (St-Raymond or Gamelin)-Plateau-Allumettières-Wilfrid Lavigne-Principale. Plus it also gets Aylmerites to both downtowns.

[agl]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Here are examples of a Metro that serves existing ridership and not Potential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Metro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway

Impassioned debate about rapid transit in Aylmer-Hull is cool; insulting my intelligence by posting links of Shanghai and New York's transit systems in order to try and contrast the Plateau's supposedly existing "high" density against the rest of western Aylmer is not cool.

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Then you have missed the point of having a train to begin with. Areas of Potential development are best served by buses while dense areas with strong ridership are best suited for LRT or Subways. This is why having a route go past 3 golf courses makes no sense. If the route goes the way Kitchissippi has it the the route would still go through better dense areas in Plateau and Hull where there will be better ridership throughout the day. Doing it like this will make the Traain cheaper to operate than going down a less dense Alymer and Tache roads where they are less dense causing it to be more expensive to operate.

I've repeatedly stated that the ideal solution is two lines; I have also stated that I would be fine with buses continuing on Taché provided some key bottlenecks are addressed. And where's the evidence that the Plateau and Wrightville have strong ridership compared with the rest of Aylmer?

I moved to the Plateau in 2005 and eagerly awaited the planned urban village I was told would arrive by 2009 (never trust a developer I've since learned). We are now 2018 and without an urban village, and from what I heard developers actually requested re-zoning of the area to reduce the planned density of housing, and their wish was granted.

I completely acknowledge that getting through Val-Tétreau south of UQO is a challenge; I also acknowledge that there are currently 3 infamous golf courses alongside Taché. But the route as proposed by Kitchissippi* has several issues, some very similar to the Taché route, that have not been brought up:

- Runs north alongside Samuel-Eddy from Principale - beside a golf course (I agree with a previous post that Wilfred-Lavigne is a better route);
- Runs east along a 4 lane highway, beside a forest;
- Continues east alongside the 148 with McMansions on the south side and medium density housing to the north (this is good);
-Continues east on the south end of le Plateau neighbourhood, lessening the potential of walk on riders;
-Crosses Gatineau Park, with similar density to a golf course (ie. 0), on a road that the NCC closed off to ambulance only access in order to reduce park crossings - will have to wait and see if they agree to two rail lines;
- Requires a 1.5km tunnel under Gamelin, in addition to even more tunneling under Hull. Where's the budget to pay for all that?

Population and ridership-wise I am not convinced either route is necessarily deserving of a tramway at this time, but if a tramway means better integration with Ottawa's system and reduces transfers, then I agree it makes sense to push for it now, and two surface routes if possible, one along Taché and one running on and alongside Le Plateau boulevard from Vanier, through the heart of the neighbourhood and planned urban village (2029??), then south on St-Raymond (or east through Gatineau Park and Wrightville if the NCC is agreeable and bags of money are available).

If there's money available for transit, I think the single biggest budget issue is addressing the interconnectivity between downtown Hull and Ottawa, whether it's via a new crossing or refurbishment of an existing one. After that I am doubtful there will be much money for significant grade separation, if any.

*Footnote to Kitchissippi - your mapping and enthusiasm is awesome, I mean no disrespect with my critique above of your proposed route. Keep the plans coming.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

There is nothing urbanish about Aylmer Road, it goes past 3 golf courses and sprawling estates in a distance comparable to crossing the Greenbelt. Running LRT here is a bit of a one-trick pony to get commuters from western Aylmer to the Portage district and then on to Ottawa.

For Gatineau's sake, an LRT project should have a bit of city building that ties the older parts of the city and makes use of existing commercial areas. Wrightville is like Gatineau's Vanier.

There's a lot more urban along the Aylmer Road, including, at the far end, the old Town of Aylmer itself, than those god-awful low-density garburbs to the north. All the transit in the world is not going to turn them into anything but the beaudryesque Gatineau sprawl that they are.

As another poster has said, those golf course ain't forever, either.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by agl

Impassioned debate about rapid transit in Aylmer-Hull is cool; insulting my intelligence by posting links of Shanghai and New York's transit systems in order to try and contrast the Plateau's supposedly existing "high" density against the rest of western Aylmer is not cool.



I've repeatedly stated that the ideal solution is two lines; I have also stated that I would be fine with buses continuing on Taché provided some key bottlenecks are addressed. And where's the evidence that the Plateau and Wrightville have strong ridership compared with the rest of Aylmer?

I moved to the Plateau in 2005 and eagerly awaited the planned urban village I was told would arrive by 2009 (never trust a developer I've since learned). We are now 2018 and without an urban village, and from what I heard developers actually requested re-zoning of the area to reduce the planned density of housing, and their wish was granted.

I completely acknowledge that getting through Val-Tétreau south of UQO is a challenge; I also acknowledge that there are currently 3 infamous golf courses alongside Taché. But the route as proposed by Kitchissippi* has several issues, some very similar to the Taché route, that have not been brought up:

- Runs north alongside Samuel-Eddy from Principale - beside a golf course (I agree with a previous post that Wilfred-Lavigne is a better route);
- Runs east along a 4 lane highway, beside a forest;
- Continues east alongside the 148 with McMansions on the south side and medium density housing to the north (this is good);
-Continues east on the south end of le Plateau neighbourhood, lessening the potential of walk on riders;
-Crosses Gatineau Park, with similar density to a golf course (ie. 0), on a road that the NCC closed off to ambulance only access in order to reduce park crossings - will have to wait and see if they agree to two rail lines;
- Requires a 1.5km tunnel under Gamelin, in addition to even more tunneling under Hull. Where's the budget to pay for all that?

Population and ridership-wise I am not convinced either route is necessarily deserving of a tramway at this time, but if a tramway means better integration with Ottawa's system and reduces transfers, then I agree it makes sense to push for it now, and two surface routes if possible, one along Taché and one running on and alongside Le Plateau boulevard from Vanier, through the heart of the neighbourhood and planned urban village (2029??), then south on St-Raymond (or east through Gatineau Park and Wrightville if the NCC is agreeable and bags of money are available).

If there's money available for transit, I think the single biggest budget issue is addressing the interconnectivity between downtown Hull and Ottawa, whether it's via a new crossing or refurbishment of an existing one. After that I am doubtful there will be much money for significant grade separation, if any.

*Footnote to Kitchissippi - your mapping and enthusiasm is awesome, I mean no disrespect with my critique above of your proposed route. Keep the plans coming.

Whether we like it or not, grade separation will be the best option for either of the plans. I am not a fan of doing anything at grade unless its converting the rapibus corridor to LRT. We are definitely will be fooling ourselves if we think it will cost less than 1 billion. I would rather spend a bit more to get the right route to reach more areas than be cheap and have an empty train in off peak hours.

[zzptichka]

I guess I'm boring but I would just follow Maisonneuve and des Allumettières on median all the way to Aylmer. At least it has a chance to be built without spending 3-decades worth of transit budget.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

There's a lot more urban along the Aylmer Road, including, at the far end, the old Town of Aylmer itself, than those god-awful low-density garburbs to the north. All the transit in the world is not going to turn them into anything but the beaudryesque Gatineau sprawl that they are.

As another poster has said, those golf course ain't forever, either.

Um, I think you need a geography lesson. Sure there's village-sh portions of rue Principale in Aylmer town and Alexandre-Taché in Val-Tétreau in the east, but for the most part Aylmer Road itself is about as rural a city street can be, some parts don't even have sidewalks and extremely pedestrian- and cyclist-hostile. If you think can create Paris-sur-l'Outaouais here, there are easier possibilities to do it in the greenfields in the Plateau.

[Horus]

^^^ That is literally the only place where the 2 golf courses are opposite each other.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Um, I think you need a geography lesson. Sure there's village-sh portions of rue Principale in Aylmer town and Alexandre-Taché in Val-Tétreau in the east, but for the most part Aylmer Road itself is about as rural a city street can be, some parts don't even have sidewalks and extremely pedestrian- and cyclist-hostile. If you think can create Paris-sur-l'Outaouais here, there are easier possibilities to do it in the greenfields in the Plateau.

I am quite familiar with the geography.

A linear main street is going to give you more urban fabric to work with than MarcelBeaudryLand ever wil.

[Aylmer]

There's not actually much greenfield left in the Plateau. What little isn't already under construction is slated to be within the next few years. Everything south of Allumettières in the Plateau is NCC parkland and the largest parcel of yet-undeveloped land is also a park. There's the land south of the highway between Vanier and Samuel-Eddy and potentially the redevelopment of the Smart Centre in the Plateau.

Chemin d'Aylmer, as has been pointed out, has a number of barely-profitable golf courses which could be redeveloped as well as the declining Galeries area.

The point is that Allumettières is no longer the greenfield paradise it was even 10-15 years ago and it will be almost completely built up in difficult-to-upzone suburban development by time LRT is completed sometime in the late 2020s. In this regard, Chemin d'Aylmer actually provides some interesting advantages since the developable parcels are by and large not yet planned, which means that they could be planned and built around LRT in the 2020s instead of trying to shoe-horn transit in.
The old commercial building stock around the Galeries is also advantageous since its relatively low value makes it ripe for a rebuild, whereas the still-successful Smart Centre doesn't have the same incentive since it's already doing well as it is and will likely continue to do so for years to come.

[agl]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I measured the Plateau route, the difference is about 4.5 km, so let's say 15 vs 10 km. At an average running speed of 50kph that's a difference of 6 minutes. If, however the Taché route runs at a 40kph because of interaction with traffic and the Plateau route runs at 60+kph with little or no conflict with traffic largely because of grade separation, the difference is nil or better. Then there's reliability and susceptibility to vehicular collisions.

Buses on Taché actually run quite well, and I would suggest at average speeds much higher than 40kph, except for the bottleneck areas I've identified above.

If the money is there for a grade separated route through the Plateau, across Gatineau Park, along Gamelin, and south through Hull, I'll gladly hop on that train. But that requires an incredible amount of investment that I doubt would even be remotely available, nor is that level of grade separation justified with the population size and ridership.

The largest obstacle for Gatineau transit is downtown Hull and Ottawa, and in my view where the big money should be spent if there's to be any grade separation on the line(s).