West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[agl]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Potential and existing density are entirely different. His proposed route that you are throwing cold water on is actually better since it will be near higher density areas.

Fair enough that the density is not currently at the same level along Aylmer Road/Taché than in parts of Hull, but I wouldn't suggest le Plateau is significantly higher level of density than some other western Aylmer neighbourhoods.

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Putting LRT on tache is going to create a traffic nightmare unless the widen tache by a lot.

Why does Taché need to be widened, other than at some major intersections for station placement and turning lanes? Other than having to address the slowdown at Champlain Bridge, LRT/Rapibus can use the existing bus lanes all along Taché, then head to the south side of Lucerne at the Sainte Dominique park and ride and run behind UQO to Terrasses and beyond.

Everyone living west of Vanier would have a considerably longer commute if forced on a curvy ride through the Plateau and sojourn into northern Hull. Given that Gatineau Rapibus got only one underpass at Gréber but otherwise deals with traffic lights along the entire route, I highly doubt there will be any money for tunneling a western route under Gatineau Park and parts of Gamelin, especially when the biggest $ issue will be getting commuters across the river.

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I hope someone in Gatineau city council see his idea since it is similar to one of their proposed routes and this will serve more people.

I am all for a rapid transit option for le Plateau, and northern part of Hull if feasible; I just don't think it should be considered the primary route for western Aylmer.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by agl

Not to throw cold water on the suggested route, but all of northern Aylmer and Le Plateau are low density, whereas the greatest potential for high density is along the rue Principale/Aylmer road/ Taché corridor, including the multi-tower plan by Brigil (if it comes to fruition as planned). I would think at some point down the road we will also lose one of the golf courses to development

Please throw all the cold water you have: this proposal is like Ottawa's transit philosophy: built for the suburbs and the path of least resistance, rather than urban transit that can direct further urban typology and topology along an already urban or urbanish corridor.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by agl

Fair enough that the density is not currently at the same level along Aylmer Road/Taché than in parts of Hull, but I wouldn't suggest le Plateau is significantly higher level of density than some other western Aylmer neighbourhoods.



Why does Taché need to be widened, other than at some major intersections for station placement and turning lanes? Other than having to address the slowdown at Champlain Bridge, LRT/Rapibus can use the existing bus lanes all along Taché, then head to the south side of Lucerne at the Sainte Dominique park and ride and run behind UQO to Terrasses and beyond.

Everyone living west of Vanier would have a considerably longer commute if forced on a curvy ride through the Plateau and sojourn into northern Hull. Given that Gatineau Rapibus got only one underpass at Gréber but otherwise deals with traffic lights along the entire route, I highly doubt there will be any money for tunneling a western route under Gatineau Park and parts of Gamelin, especially when the biggest $ issue will be getting commuters across the river.



I am all for a rapid transit option for le Plateau, and northern part of Hull if feasible; I just don't think it should be considered the primary route for western Aylmer.

Tache is already a traffic nightmare during rush hour as is. There is simply no space to put a tram on it along with stations unless its buried which will be way more expensive. Its no different than Chiarelli's plan in 2006 for Ottawa which thankfully got tossed.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Tache is already a traffic nightmare during rush hour as is. There is simply no space to put a tram on it along with stations unless its buried which will be way more expensive. Its no different than Chiarelli's plan in 2006 for Ottawa which thankfully got tossed.

The road is already crush-loaded?

All the more reason to increase its capacity to move humans through public transit.

[agl]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Tache is already a traffic nightmare during rush hour as is. There is simply no space to put a tram on it along with stations unless its buried which will be way more expensive. Its no different than Chiarelli's plan in 2006 for Ottawa which thankfully got tossed.

Chiarelli's plan was for a surface route through downtown Ottawa, which is completely different than using two lanes of a four lane suburban road such as Taché.

And if traffic is a nightmare on Taché now, as Uhuniau mentioned the best option is to improve public transit in the same corridor. Removing transit to add another low occupancy car lane will just bring more cars and the same gridlock.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Tache is already a traffic nightmare during rush hour as is. There is simply no space to put a tram on it along with stations unless its buried which will be way more expensive. Its no different than Chiarelli's plan in 2006 for Ottawa which thankfully got tossed.

West of Saint-Dominique where it widens to 4 lanes? East of there it would likely divert off of Tache.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by roger1818

West of Saint-Dominique where it widens to 4 lanes? East of there it would likely divert off of Tache.

I would have to check that

Just looking at google maps It would be a very tight fit just to divert it off Tache, essentially you need to kick cars off of Lucerne and then wait for all the NIMBY protests to start.

The current route has alot of problems there are going to have to deal with and will push the price over 1 billion dollars to go through a less dense area. I rather it go through where there is more density so it could serve more people and Kitchissippi's idea does that even though it may be more expensive.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

West of Saint-Dominique where it widens to 4 lanes? East of there it would likely divert off of Tache.

Yes there are other less disruptive options not on Taché such as Lucerne which is one block south of there.

[Aylmer]

Surface LRT wouldn't change much/anything for the cars on the road since two of the four lanes are already bus lanes (plus a handful of 3+ carpoolers). Since LRT would replace the bus lanes, you'd go from 2 car + 2 bus lanes to 2 car + 2 tram lanes.

Taché only goes down to 3 lanes once you get east of Ste Dominique, at which point LRT would likely deviate off to Lucerne in order to avoid the UQO hill.

So there's really no decrease in the number of lanes available to the vast majority of cars anywhere. I don't think that we should be necessarily be building transit exclusively when it doesn't impact car traffic, but in this case, it's a happy coincidence that the most convenient transit route also has little to no impact on automobile lanes.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Please throw all the cold water you have: this proposal is like Ottawa's transit philosophy: built for the suburbs and the path of least resistance, rather than urban transit that can direct further urban typology and topology along an already urban or urbanish corridor.

There is nothing urbanish about Aylmer Road, it goes past 3 golf courses and sprawling estates in a distance comparable to crossing the Greenbelt. Running LRT here is a bit of a one-trick pony to get commuters from western Aylmer to the Portage district and then on to Ottawa.

For Gatineau's sake, an LRT project should have a bit of city building that ties the older parts of the city and makes use of existing commercial areas. Wrightville is like Gatineau's Vanier.

[Horus]

There would need to be some creative solution to getting LRT/Tramway routes through the Aylmer Road/Champlain Bridge intersection. As it exists now, the bus lane is very clunky through that section as Ottawa-bound traffic has to cross the bus lane to access the bridge approach.

Some kind of Over/Underpass would be ideal to minimize potential interaction with auto traffic at that location.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by agl

Chiarelli's plan was for a surface route through downtown Ottawa, which is completely different than using two lanes of a four lane suburban road such as Taché.

And if traffic is a nightmare on Taché now, as Uhuniau mentioned the best option is to improve public transit in the same corridor. Removing transit to add another low occupancy car lane will just bring more cars and the same gridlock.

Albert and Slater are 3 lanes each which make 6 lanes, so LRT at grade would have been using 2 out of 6 lanes which is better than using 2 out of 4 lanes like Tache.

Disrupting a corridor will only result in people using other roads to get to their destination, it wont mean more people will use transit.

[Aylmer]

Or if you put the tram lanes in the middle, you avoid the whole crossover problem.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Horus

There would need to be some creative solution to getting LRT/Tramway routes through the Aylmer Road/Champlain Bridge intersection. As it exists now, the bus lane is very clunky through that section as Ottawa-bound traffic has to cross the bus lane to access the bridge approach.

Some kind of Over/Underpass would be ideal to minimize potential interaction with auto traffic at that location.

If they did an underpass at Gréber/Maloney for the Rapibus they could do one there too. Probably with a station for transfers to buses crossing over the Champlain Bridge to destinations like Tunney's Pasture.

[agl]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Albert and Slater are 3 lanes each which make 6 lanes, so LRT at grade would have been using 2 out of 6 lanes which is better than using 2 out of 4 lanes like Tache.

Disrupting a corridor will only result in people using other roads to get to their destination, it wont mean more people will use transit.

The Albert/Slater corridor has served as the rapid transit route to and through downtown Ottawa for the city's entire population (900,000 plus). Taché is one of four roads serving a western Gatineau population of roughly 60,000. Again, there is NO comparison.

There's no disruption of the corridor for people in cars; they get to keep their single lane of traffic each direction like they always have.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by agl

The Albert/Slater corridor has served as the rapid transit route to and through downtown Ottawa for the city's entire population (900,000 plus). Taché is one of four roads serving a western Gatineau population of roughly 60,000. Again, there is NO comparison.

There's no disruption of the corridor for people in cars; they get to keep their single lane of traffic each direction like they always have.

i completely disagree with your whole statement

[Hybrid247]

I really don't get this obsession with a Tache/Aylmer alignment. As Kitchissippi said, there is nothing urban about the area until you reach Samuel-Edey. LRT there has little potential for ridership growth or TOD unless those golf courses are sold to developers, which I doubt will ever happen.

Essentially you'll end up with a tramway that adds little value over bus lanes. Kitchissippi's alignment on the other hand will travel through areas with higher density, growth potential and actual destinations (i.e. hospital, commercial areas).

[Aylmer]

Well, Taché has the university, Val Tétreau, The connaught development, Quebec's largest residential development at Ambassade Champlain (between Allan Rd and Chateau Cartier). Several of the golf courses are looking to sell as well. It also has the benefit of being the fastest and most direct route, including for the north of Aylmer. It's also not an either/or - With a Chemin d'Aylmer route, you could have a spur up Saint Raymond up to Plateau.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

I really don't get this obsession with a Tache/Aylmer alignment. As Kitchissippi said, there is nothing urban about the area until you reach Samuel-Edey. LRT there has little potential for ridership growth or TOD unless those golf courses are sold to developers, which I doubt will ever happen.

Essentially you'll end up with a tramway that adds little value over bus lanes. Kitchissippi's alignment on the other hand will travel through areas with higher density, growth potential and actual destinations (i.e. hospital, commercial areas).

I might have it go down through the middle of Hull after St-Rédempteur as opposed to having it hug Autoroute 5 where basically no one lives or works.

There is a MUP corridor that crosses that part of Hull semi-diagonally called the Sentier-de-l'Île. It goes roughly from St-Rédempteur to the corner of Allumettières and Maisonneuve, and then across the Alexandra Bridge. Might be a good option.

To the west, looking at his plan I would put the southward route along Wilfrid-Lavigne instead of Samuel-Edey as the east side of Edey is golf courses and brush. No one lives there or will live there any time soon.

Wilfrid-Lavigne is built up on both sides and if your line turns south at Wilfrid-Lavigne and Allumettières you get a better chance of drawing people from the built-up areas to the north of Allumettières.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Well, Taché has the university, Val Tétreau, The connaught development, Quebec's largest residential development at Ambassade Champlain (between Allan Rd and Chateau Cartier). Several of the golf courses are looking to sell as well. It also has the benefit of being the fastest and most direct route, including for the north of Aylmer. It's also not an either/or - With a Chemin d'Aylmer route, you could have a spur up Saint Raymond up to Plateau.

There is no choice that is a no-brainer for this one.

If we can't do both and are forced to choose I think we'd get more bang for our buck with the northern route through the Plateau, and then down Wilfrid-Lavigne and west on Principale.

This would also cover areas that are further away (therefore travel times bite harder) and have fewer options to get in and out than the Ch. d'Aylmer/Taché/Val-Tétreau area is.