The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

$12 billion for GTA transit projects all of a sudden. Damn good thing I don't have a suspicious mind or I would think this has something to do with it being an election year.

You wouldn't be alone in thinking that

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

moot point perhaps, but is the Scarborough subway another subway, or will it amount to an extension of the existing subway Line 2? I know that the rickety above-grade LRT is being replaced.

It’s the extension of Line 2 to replace the SRT that has been on the table for damn near a decade now, yea. Preliminary construction started a few months ago.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

$12 billion for GTA transit projects all of a sudden. Damn good thing I don't have a suspicious mind or I would think this has something to do with it being an election year.

As if Liberals need to actually do anything like this to sweep Toronto's seats.

[Innsertnamehere]

Also - the Hamilton LRT is going to have far higher ridership than the Kitchener LRT does. It’s a great project.

Hamilton has faltering bus ridership but pre pandemic had a fairly strong ridership growth strategy and was actually investing in that plan.

The route the LRT takes is also the route of a very, very high ridership line. Hamilton’s geographic layout lends itself well to a single east-west line. The existing bus service runs on as low as 3 minute frequencies at peak hour today.

This money has been coming for years. It’s basically the Toronto portion of the federal infrastructure fund they announced following the last election. I’m sure there will be more announcements on where the funds cash is going for the rest of Canada. (Phase 3 Ottawa LRT, REM phase 2, Green Line, etc.) don’t anyone worry, the feds have lots of money coming for everyone.

[jigglysquishy]

Regina and Saskatoon out here collecting bottles to pay for transit improvements.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

Regina and Saskatoon out here collecting bottles to pay for transit improvements.

Might have something to do with Regina blowing the bank on a massive bypass freeway for a small city, and now the same thing being planned for Saskatoon.

[jigglysquishy]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Might have something to do with Regina blowing the bank on a massive bypass freeway for a small city, and now the same thing being planned for Saskatoon.

Both were opposed by the cities and rammed through by our very rural provincial government.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

Both were opposed by the cities and rammed through by our very rural provincial government.

Up to you guys to vote them out then. Regina and Saskatoon together have over 40% of the province's population.

On the plus side, both cities will benefit from plan to field 5000 electric buses by 2026.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

Both were opposed by the cities and rammed through by our very rural provincial government.

Alas, my understanding is that those projects are the ones eating up most of the provinces federal infrastructure dollars.

Saskatchewan cities are too small to really justify any light rail transit anyway. At most some sort of BRT system may be appropriate, but even then the money is probably better spent on increasing regular bus service levels.

[SteelTown]

During a joint provincial-federal media briefing on Tuesday, Catherine McKenna, federal minister of infrastructure and communities, said $10.7 billion would go toward four priority subway projects in the GTA.

She said more information on Hamilton would be coming later this week.

"Stay tuned, I'll see you in the Hammer, I think on Thursday," she said.

"We'll see you at our next announcement," echoed Caroline Mulroney, Ontario's minister of transportation.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/rapid-transit-federal-1.6021947

Looks like this Thursday there will be more information on Hamilton's LRT.

[jigglysquishy]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Up to you guys to vote them out then. Regina and Saskatoon together have over 40% of the province's population.

On the plus side, both cities will benefit from plan to field 5000 electric buses by 2026.

We're at an awkward position where literally every non-Regina or Saskatoon seat goes Sask Party (except our two northern ridings) so even if the NDP clean swept the two cities, they still would not form government.

The Sask Party regularly gets 60-80% of the votes in rural Saskatchewan.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ottawa doesn't need a Stage 3 commitment right now. Confederation Line West isn't going to be in service till 2025. The Feds wouldn't even need to commit to anything till the end of 2022.

And this assumes the Feds are interested. Given that the mayor is calling for 100% federal and provincial funding, that's going to be a tough call. Regionally the Feds will have to spend on new bridges and the Gatineau LRT, Stage 3 is going to be lower on the list.

Also, at some point, I'm sure the feds are also looking at really pushing the electrification of buses, to help meet their emissions goals. So that will mean a lot more capital spending on new buses, garage retrofits, en route Oppchargers, etc. across the country. That will delay investment in rail projects in some cases.

The possibility of increased work from home in the future severely cuts into the business case of the Kanata and Barrhaven extensions of the Confederation Line, which was already pretty weak IMO. I'd definitely want to re-evaluate the business case in a year before begging the feds for money. As you said, the project is some 4 years away from being able to start anyway so it's not like delaying the funding at this point has any negative impacts.

A lot of the political desire for these extensions I think really just amounts to me-tooism, the people of Kanata getting upset that Orleans is getting a train line and wanting one too. This despite the fact that Orleans has a much better business case for LRT service to the core than the other two: higher transit ridership, less road infrastructure crossing the Greenbelt, and less local employment (so more demand for long distance commuting).

Extending out the BRT network with the proposed BRT lines on Carling, March, and Baseline will offer much better bang for the buck.

[Truenorth00]

If HFR goes through, I will argue for a Barrhaven extension, at least till Fallowfield. Just to fill out the network. Extensions beyond Fallowfield and into Kanata are a harder sell.

And like I said, at some point, the feds will have to make hard choices. With climate policy, driving a lot of decisions, replacing buses and electrifying suburban rail (GO, Exo) are going to be priorities.

[jigglysquishy]

I'm happy to finally see federal funding for the Ontario Line.

The DRL (or its weird replacement) is the most needed infrastructure project in Canada.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The possibility of increased work from home in the future severely cuts into the business case of the Kanata and Barrhaven extensions of the Confederation Line, which was already pretty weak IMO. I'd definitely want to re-evaluate the business case in a year before begging the feds for money. As you said, the project is some 4 years away from being able to start anyway so it's not like delaying the funding at this point has any negative impacts.

A lot of the political desire for these extensions I think really just amounts to me-tooism, the people of Kanata getting upset that Orleans is getting a train line and wanting one too. This despite the fact that Orleans has a much better business case for LRT service to the core than the other two: higher transit ridership, less road infrastructure crossing the Greenbelt, and less local employment (so more demand for long distance commuting).

Extending out the BRT network with the proposed BRT lines on Carling, March, and Baseline will offer much better bang for the buck.

Agreed, even before Covid. Stage 3 is $Billions to convert an already perfectly functional bus network. Gatineau's Aylmer/Plateau on the other hand are pretty dense and have little in terms of good road and transit connections to the downtown area. They also have a lot to offer for those who don't live in the area.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If HFR goes through, I will argue for a Barrhaven extension, at least till Fallowfield. Just to fill out the network. Extensions beyond Fallowfield and into Kanata are a harder sell.

And like I said, at some point, the feds will have to make hard choices. With climate policy, driving a lot of decisions, replacing buses and electrifying suburban rail (GO, Exo) are going to be priorities.

That stretch also has the City archives, a future film studio and the Nepean Sportsplex, which helps in the justification, as well as the grade separation at the Woodroffe/Transitway/VIA intersection (site of a deadly bus crash in 2013) that needs to be done with or without the O-Train.

Fallowfield for Barrhaven and Eagleson (or Terry Fox) in Kanata would suffice.

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

I'm happy to finally see federal funding for the Ontario Line.

The DRL (or its weird replacement) is the most needed infrastructure project in Canada.

No arguments here.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Doady

Hamilton is a good example of a city that should not be building LRT. A chronically underfunded bus system for decades to the point that the ridership has fallen below not only its main peers, Quebec City and Winnipeg, but even below Mississauga, Brampton, Waterloo, London. London is a city needs LRT more: a city with actual high bus ridership, and high levels of snowfall that will limit their ability to rely on articulated buses. LRT won't solve the problem of chronically underfunded bus service in Hamilton. The lack of buses is the main reason for Hamilton drastic ridership loss since the 90s, not the lack of LRT.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Also - the Hamilton LRT is going to have far higher ridership than the Kitchener LRT does. It’s a great project.

Hamilton has faltering bus ridership but pre pandemic had a fairly strong ridership growth strategy and was actually investing in that plan.

The route the LRT takes is also the route of a very, very high ridership line. Hamilton’s geographic layout lends itself well to a single east-west line. The existing bus service runs on as low as 3 minute frequencies at peak hour today.

This money has been coming for years. It’s basically the Toronto portion of the federal infrastructure fund they announced following the last election. I’m sure there will be more announcements on where the funds cash is going for the rest of Canada. (Phase 3 Ottawa LRT, REM phase 2, Green Line, etc.) don’t anyone worry, the feds have lots of money coming for everyone.

This chronically underfunding speaks to why an LRT might be successful. If the BLAST network is built out, in 3-5 phases, it should be a success.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ottawa doesn't need a Stage 3 commitment right now. Confederation Line West isn't going to be in service till 2025. The Feds wouldn't even need to commit to anything till the end of 2022.

And this assumes the Feds are interested. Given that the mayor is calling for 100% federal and provincial funding, that's going to be a tough call. Regionally the Feds will have to spend on new bridges and the Gatineau LRT, Stage 3 is going to be lower on the list.

Also, at some point, I'm sure the feds are also looking at really pushing the electrification of buses, to help meet their emissions goals. So that will mean a lot more capital spending on new buses, garage retrofits, en route Oppchargers, etc. across the country. That will delay investment in rail projects in some cases.

I feel the connection to Gatineau should be a priority on the Ottawa area. The Gatineau LRT should be done before Phase 3 is done. That would have the most transformative transit for the area.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

$12 billion for GTA transit projects all of a sudden. Damn good thing I don't have a suspicious mind or I would think this has something to do with it being an election year.

The election cycle begins as soon as the votes are in. More so with a minority government.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Can Alberta get some of this cheddar? We need a f*cking Greeeeen Line, a line to the rockies, and then throw in something nice for Edmonton too.

Calgary doesn't get any more until the Greenline launches or is cancelled. The feds want their money spent.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Can Alberta get some of this cheddar? We need a f*cking Greeeeen Line, a line to the rockies, and then throw in something nice for Edmonton too.

Agreeeed, our Capital Line extension to 41 Avenue south of the Henday and Metro Line extension north of the Yellowhead to Campbell Road please and thanks (both shovel ready).

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Calgary doesn't get any more until the Greenline launches or is cancelled. The feds want their money spent.

I assume (and hope) the potential Banff railway would not be a "Calgary" project, when it comes to funding?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That stretch also has the City archives, a future film studio and the Nepean Sportsplex, which helps in the justification, as well as the grade separation at the Woodroffe/Transitway/VIA intersection (site of a deadly bus crash in 2013) that needs to be done with or without the O-Train.

Fallowfield for Barrhaven and Eagleson (or Terry Fox) in Kanata would suffice.

Every city in Canada has some reason why their particular project should be priority or has merit. The feds have to balance those demands. Not to mention their own plans and targets (particularly those 2030 emissions targets).

On the national scale, there's less merit to our Stage 3 projects. There's probably a few more elsewhere that get better ridership. Including the Gatineau LRT itself.

I also think given how much Stage 3 costs, there's a good argument to break it up. Build only till Fallowfield in Stage 3. Save the Kanata extension and the Barrhaven Transitway replacement for later. There's really no logical reason to tie a full Barrhaven LRT to a full Kanata extension. Those are local political considerations that the feds really shouldn't be bothered about.