The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[nname]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I remember the debate between LRT and Metro along with the whole "what really is rapid transit" thing, and it just came to a mute point for me at least, since just for instance, the C-Train - with a considerable portion on street in downtown and the northeast - has a higher average speed than the Skytrain, which is not only fully separated and has wider separation between stations (which should indicate higher speed?) but automated.

Where do you find this information. From my calculation:

Vancouver Canada Line: 34.7 km/h
Calgary Blue Line: 35.0 km/h
Calgary Red Line: 35.3 km/h
Vancouver Millennium Line: 42.5 km/h
Vancouver Expo Line: 43.4 km/h

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

In the case of capacity, that also supports my comparison of the C-Train and Skytrain, as both systems carry a relatively comparable amount of people. ~460 000 /day for Skytrain and ~320 000 /day on C-Train. Much of this discrepancy is explained by the extra 20 km the Skytrain has over the C-Train. The next highest ridership is O-Train at 160,000 /day.

One of the main issue for SkyTrain is that there are only 2 lines that goes into downtown from 2 different directions (compared to Calgary from 4 directions, and Ottawa also from 2 directions). So some issue exists because all the riders from the east are funneled into a single line, thus requiring a much higher capacity even though daily ridership seems similar. Last time I checked (and this was years ago), peak load on the C-Train was around 10,000 pphpd coming into downtown, compared to 15,000 pphpd on the Expo Line.

[Chadillaccc]

Hmmm I never saw it by line, just by system, and it was years ago. Let me find the numbers…


Edit: can't find the source of the numbers. I'll trust yours as the ones I was paraphrasing are from years ago, and I'd have to look back ages in this thread to find the links

[nname]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Hmmm I never saw it by line, just by system, and it was years ago. Let me find the numbers…


Edit: can't find the source of the numbers. I'll trust yours as the ones I was paraphrasing are from years ago, and I'd have to look back ages in this thread to find the links

Maybe your source is picking the slowest Canada Line against C-Train, then the conclusion is true. But Canada Line is notably being slow and everyone here knows it. Close station spacing (1.1km, and soon to be 1.0km), slow acceleration, slow down for curves, and the infamous single-tracking

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by nname

Where do you find this information. From my calculation:

Vancouver Canada Line: 34.7 km/h
Calgary Blue Line: 35.0 km/h
Calgary Red Line: 35.3 km/h
Vancouver Millennium Line: 42.5 km/h
Vancouver Expo Line: 43.4 km/h




One of the main issue for SkyTrain is that there are only 2 lines that goes into downtown from 2 different directions (compared to Calgary from 4 directions, and Ottawa also from 2 directions). So some issue exists because all the riders from the east are funneled into a single line, thus requiring a much higher capacity even though daily ridership seems similar. Last time I checked (and this was years ago), peak load on the C-Train was around 10,000 pphpd coming into downtown, compared to 15,000 pphpd on the Expo Line.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Hmmm I never saw it by line, just by system, and it was years ago. Let me find the numbers…


Edit: can't find the source of the numbers. I'll trust yours as the ones I was paraphrasing are from years ago, and I'd have to look back ages in this thread to find the links

I remember doing the math for this years ago during a debate like this. IIRC I used the time tables and did a work up without the downtown section. Probably lost to time now.

[Truenorth00]

No idea if this was posted before but what Edmonton is doing with eidetic buses through their partnership with Proterra is really interesting:

• Video Link

Given that the feds intend to add 5000 electric buses by 2026, out of 20 000 transit buses on the road today, I'd say Edmonton's experience operating in such a cold climate is really valuable.

[savevp]

Well...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/transit-investment-toronto-hamilton-1.6021839

Looks like the Feds are about to make a massive announcement for Ontario. Apparently funding 40pc of Ontario Line, Yonge Line extension into York, Eglinton West extension possibly to the airport, the Scarborough RT replacement, and Hamilton light rail.

[Innsertnamehere]

The feds are apparently announcing today that they will contribute $12 billion, or 40%, to the Ontario subway expansion program.

The program includes 4 new subway lines in Toronto - the Ontario line, Scarborough Subway, Eglinton West LRT extension (technically LRT but completely grade separated), and Yonge subway extension.

[J.OT13]

Ottawa: can we get in on this?

In Hamilton, will they build the exact line they canceled two years ago that would probably have been 40% cheaper at that time?

Again, somewhat frustrating. Ottawa's ready to go with Stage 3 and a whole bunch of BRTs, but no funding. Gatineau's been (literally) waiting at the gates of Parliament for funding on their tramway, and all they got so far after years of waiting is money that will be given to the NCC to study the studies Gatineau has already studied.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ottawa: can we get in on this?

In Hamilton, will they build the exact line they canceled two years ago that would probably have been 40% cheaper at that time?

Again, somewhat frustrating. Ottawa's ready to go with Stage 3 and a whole bunch of BRTs, but no funding. Gatineau's been (literally) waiting at the gates of Parliament for funding on their tramway, and all they got so far after years of waiting is money that will be given to the NCC to study the studies Gatineau has already studied.

To be fair, Ottawa got $1.15B of Federal funding for Stage 2 LRT in 2017. Since the Ontario portion of the Ottawa CMA (i.e. OC Transpo's jurisdiction) is roughly 1/9 the size of the area Metrolinx serves in the GTA, that would be equivalent to a $10.35 billion injection into equivalent Metrolinx projects at that time.

I think that Ottawa's Stage 2 LRT is the equivalent to this package of projects for the GTA and that Stage 1 was roughly aligned with the Federal money the Toronto region got for Eglinton-Crosstown and Spadina Extension in the early 2010s.

I don't really know about Gatineau's situation. How far along are their LRT plans? And how much is the Legault government going to cough up? My impression is that the Feds don't fund anything that the province won't either.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ottawa: can we get in on this?

In Hamilton, will they build the exact line they canceled two years ago that would probably have been 40% cheaper at that time?

Again, somewhat frustrating. Ottawa's ready to go with Stage 3 and a whole bunch of BRTs, but no funding. Gatineau's been (literally) waiting at the gates of Parliament for funding on their tramway, and all they got so far after years of waiting is money that will be given to the NCC to study the studies Gatineau has already studied.

Ottawa has built their Stage 1 and are building Stage 2. Building Stage 3 right after finishing Stage 2 is.... smart. This is how transit should be done in our major cities. As soon as one project finishes up, the next one starts. Arguably our 10 largest metros need it.

[J.OT13]

If we want shovels in the ground for Stage 3, we won't need that funding announcement for another few years, with the last leg of Stage 2 set to open in 2025. It's those small BRT projects that would offer a huge bang for our buck that I wish could see funding. Two or three hundred million split between the Province and Feds would go a long way, but BRT projects aren't as politicly alluring I guess.

As for Gatineau, the Province promised 60% funding about a year or so ago. They have a high-level estimates and a few options to integrate with Ottawa, which will be up to the Feds to choose which of those options better suit the needs of the region (and the budget, since they will be funding that portion in full). Final routing should be decided this summer.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ottawa: can we get in on this?
Again, somewhat frustrating. Ottawa's ready to go with Stage 3 and a whole bunch of BRTs, but no funding. Gatineau's been (literally) waiting at the gates of Parliament for funding on their tramway, and all they got so far after years of waiting is money that will be given to the NCC to study the studies Gatineau has already studied.

To be fair for the size of the population of the GTA almost 6.5 million has been getting screwed over for decades. These are all projects that should have been done years ago.

I'm glad to see the Hamilton LRT might be going ahead now even if it will piss off the mountain folk.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The feds are apparently announcing today that they will contribute $12 billion, or 40%, to the Ontario subway expansion program.

The program includes 4 new subway lines in Toronto - the Ontario line, Scarborough Subway, Eglinton West LRT extension (technically LRT but completely grade separated), and Yonge subway extension.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The feds are apparently announcing today that they will contribute $12 billion, or 40%, to the Ontario subway expansion program.

The program includes 4 new subway lines in Toronto - the Ontario line, Scarborough Subway, Eglinton West LRT extension (technically LRT but completely grade separated), and Yonge subway extension.

moot point perhaps, but is the Scarborough subway another subway, or will it amount to an extension of the existing subway Line 2? I know that the rickety above-grade LRT is being replaced.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The feds are apparently announcing today that they will contribute $12 billion, or 40%, to the Ontario subway expansion program.

The program includes 4 new subway lines in Toronto - the Ontario line, Scarborough Subway, Eglinton West LRT extension (technically LRT but completely grade separated), and Yonge subway extension.

Can Alberta get some of this cheddar? We need a f*cking Greeeeen Line, a line to the rockies, and then throw in something nice for Edmonton too.

[Doady]

Hamilton is a good example of a city that should not be building LRT. A chronically underfunded bus system for decades to the point that the ridership has fallen below not only its main peers, Quebec City and Winnipeg, but even below Mississauga, Brampton, Waterloo, London. London is a city needs LRT more: a city with actual high bus ridership, and high levels of snowfall that will limit their ability to rely on articulated buses. LRT won't solve the problem of chronically underfunded bus service in Hamilton. The lack of buses is the main reason for Hamilton drastic ridership loss since the 90s, not the lack of LRT.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by Doady

Hamilton is a good example of a city that should not be building LRT. A chronically underfunded bus system for decades to the point that the ridership has fallen below not only its main peers, Quebec City and Winnipeg, but even below Mississauga, Brampton, Waterloo, London. London is a city needs LRT more: a city with actual high bus ridership, and high levels of snowfall that will limit their ability to rely on articulated buses. LRT won't solve the problem of chronically underfunded bus service in Hamilton. The lack of buses is the main reason for Hamilton drastic ridership loss since the 90s, not the lack of LRT.

If you build it, they shall come. This project is not as linear as a transport upgrade, it is an investment for the entire lower city.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ottawa has built their Stage 1 and are building Stage 2. Building Stage 3 right after finishing Stage 2 is.... smart. This is how transit should be done in our major cities. As soon as one project finishes up, the next one starts. Arguably our 10 largest metros need it.

Ottawa doesn't need a Stage 3 commitment right now. Confederation Line West isn't going to be in service till 2025. The Feds wouldn't even need to commit to anything till the end of 2022.

And this assumes the Feds are interested. Given that the mayor is calling for 100% federal and provincial funding, that's going to be a tough call. Regionally the Feds will have to spend on new bridges and the Gatineau LRT, Stage 3 is going to be lower on the list.

Also, at some point, I'm sure the feds are also looking at really pushing the electrification of buses, to help meet their emissions goals. So that will mean a lot more capital spending on new buses, garage retrofits, en route Oppchargers, etc. across the country. That will delay investment in rail projects in some cases.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

If you build it, they shall come. This project is not as linear as a transport upgrade, it is an investment for the entire lower city.

[ssiguy]

$12 billion for GTA transit projects all of a sudden. Damn good thing I don't have a suspicious mind or I would think this has something to do with it being an election year.