The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[JakeNB]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

What’s happening with St. Vincent’s?

Just following up on this; has there been any progress on St. Vincent's or is that another ghost project like so many others?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

PAC meeting updates from last night:


Also, Irving's parking lot proposal at Wolastoq Park has passed. Committee has voted against staff's recommendation to deny the proposal. Only 3 of the members voted in favour of staff's recommendation.

Yeeesh, so they’re going to get the permanent rezoning approved? I can get behind them getting their temporary parking lot, but rezoning it commercial seems completely unnecessary and opens up a lot possibilities for the future that will be a lot more unpopular than a temporary parking lot…

[DyAm00394]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Yeeesh, so they’re going to get the permanent rezoning approved? I can get behind them getting their temporary parking lot, but rezoning it commercial seems completely unnecessary and opens up a lot possibilities for the future that will be a lot more unpopular than a temporary parking lot…

It still has to go before city council. Staff decided the best is to just move forward with last night’s decision. The Chair letter from the committee will be sent to council and will have some of the topics that were discussed including possibility of an interim parking solution. Then council can fully investigate different components instead of PAC committee attempting to craft recommendations with a variety of conditions.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

It still has to go before city council. Staff decided the best is to just move forward with last night’s decision. The Chair letter from the committee will be sent to council and will have some of the topics that were discussed including possibility of an interim parking solution. Then council can fully investigate different components instead of PAC committee attempting to craft recommendations with a variety of conditions.

Hmm… let’s see then. I just don’t see why they need permanent rezoning to commercial for a temporary parking lot. In theory, the city could let them use it as a temporary parking lot, without granting them rezoning to commercial.

It’s not the temporary parking lot that concerns me, it’s what they might want to put there ten years later that concerns me, if the property is rezoned as commercial.

[ivegotaname]

It doesn't belong to the city. it belongs ro Irving and their property

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by ivegotaname

It doesn't belong to the city. it belongs ro Irving and their property

That doesn’t mean the city should grant them a permanent rezoning for a temporary parking lot! They could just let them use it for a temporary parking lot and keep it zoned as parkland.

Keep in mind what was there before it was turned into a park. Iirc, it was sold to them at a discounted price on the condition it be turned into a park,
… it was then rezoned accordingly.

[ivegotaname]

I had family in the hospital on that land back in the day. Never should have torn it down

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by ivegotaname

I had family in the hospital on that land back in the day. Never should have torn it down

Agreed, but it was demolished and turned into a park, while the entire property was rezoned as park land.

Irving owns the land, but that doesn’t meant they get to decide on how it’s zoned. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, the only rezoning appropriate for that property and in line with “PlanSJ” would be to rezone it as residential.

If all they want is a temporary parking lot, there’s really no need for a permanent zoning change. Thus, I’m highly skeptical that a temporary parking lot is all they want for rezoning this prime piece of real estate. A permanent zoning change to commercial would open up a lot of possibilities beyond a temporary parking lot.

As someone who lives in this neighbourhood, I think it would be best for the long term interests of this area to keep industry and commercial activity to the west of Bridge Rd.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Just following up on this; has there been any progress on St. Vincent's or is that another ghost project like so many others?

When I was checking out the Steepleview Development, I couldn't see any activity on site, but there could be non-visible activity.

[silkspith]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

That doesn’t mean the city should grant them a permanent rezoning for a temporary parking lot! They could just let them use it for a temporary parking lot and keep it zoned as parkland.

Keep in mind what was there before it was turned into a park. Iirc, it was sold to them at a discounted price on the condition it be turned into a park,
… it was then rezoned accordingly.

FWIW, the conditions presented as part of the sale were a bit more complex. Based on the conditions that the Province placed as part of the $1M sale, Irving was to assume all liability for and demolish the building on site, and retain the property as green space until a suitable economic development opportunity comes forward.



As to whether $1M was a sweetheart deal for the land given the pending demo and land prices in the Y2K era, it was discounted enough to get Irving to bite, but how many other groups were prepared to assume the liability of a vacant building?

I realize we're more than 25 years into the future, but Irving has held up their end of the bargain by maintaining it as green space, and now an (arguably relevant) economic development opportunity has come forward.

[sailor734]

^ Not an unreasonable interpretation. Irving certainly upheld their end of the deal. I think the question becomes what happens to the site after the expansion is done and the need for parking is past? Assuming it is rezoned rather than Irving being given permission for temporary non conforming use. (Also assuming the city has the power to give such permission)

Also relevant is if this gravel parking lot constitutes "economic development"? I suppose you could argue it facilitates the mill expansion which certainly is development. OTOH I doubt the plans for the mill live and die on getting this parking lot approved.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by silkspith

FWIW, the conditions presented as part of the sale were a bit more complex. Based on the conditions that the Province placed as part of the $1M sale, Irving was to assume all liability for and demolish the building on site, and retain the property as green space until a suitable economic development opportunity comes forward.


As to whether $1M was a sweetheart deal for the land given the pending demo and land prices in the Y2K era, it was discounted enough to get Irving to bite, but how many other groups were prepared to assume the liability of a vacant building?

I realize we're more than 25 years into the future, but Irving has held up their end of the bargain by maintaining it as green space, and now an (arguably relevant) economic development opportunity has come forward.

So is a temporary parking lot a suitable economic development opportunity? Last time I checked Canada and Saint John are in the middle of a housing crisis, not a parking crisis. The only rezoning requests considered for such a prime piece of real estate should be residential or mixed use residential.

If Irving really needs a temporary parking lot, I don't see why the city should have a problem with them using it for a limited period while keeping the property zoned as parkland.

Giving into a zoning change proposal for a temporary parking lot at such a prominent piece of parkland on the West Side would be a pretty short sighted decision by the city council, and go against what's mapped out for the area according to Plan SJ.

If the agreement was to rezone the property as mixed use residential, then the city should role out the red carpet for the project, but that's not even close to what they're suggesting.

They want an open ended rezoning to stable commercial, for a temporary parking lot to service the expansion project at the mill to the west of Bridge Rd, according to Plan SJ, Mill operations and parking lots for the mill should stay to the west of Bridge Rd and shouldn’t spill over into a mixed residential area.

A temporary parking lot is not something that really necessitates a rezoning request, the city would be selling that property incredibly short giving into a permanent zoning change for such a liminal project.


The views from would be absolutely phenomenal at this location, perhaps the best in the entire city.

This would be one of the finest locations in the city for a high rise residential development with sweeping views of the Douglas Avenue peninsula, the Port of Saint John, Reversing Falls, the Uptown Skyline, the St. John River Valley. The side that would face the pulp mill would actually have one of the best views, i believe that's Mt. Champlain way off in the distance there. pretty wicked.

Giving into a rezoning request for something as short sighted as a temporary parking lot would be a mistake. Is it really too much for the city to try and get the largest construction company in Atlantic Canada which is headquartered in Saint John to build some housing on a prime piece of real estate that they were sold for pocket change?

Not only would a residential development at Wolastoq Park be part of long term parking solutions for the mill, as millworkers could live there, it's the perfect type of project to follow up the temporary carpark. It's a prime piece of real estate that should be opened up for residential development, not further commercial projects. This would be an ultra walkable location that could easily accommodate hundreds of units across multiple residential towers.

For the long term, parking lots and commercial buildings would be selling this prime piece of real estate incredibly short.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by silkspith

FWIW, the conditions presented as part of the sale were a bit more complex. Based on the conditions that the Province placed as part of the $1M sale, Irving was to assume all liability for and demolish the building on site, and retain the property as green space until a suitable economic development opportunity comes forward.



As to whether $1M was a sweetheart deal for the land given the pending demo and land prices in the Y2K era, it was discounted enough to get Irving to bite, but how many other groups were prepared to assume the liability of a vacant building?

I realize we're more than 25 years into the future, but Irving has held up their end of the bargain by maintaining it as green space, and now an (arguably relevant) economic development opportunity has come forward.

That's a condition of the sale with the province, has nothing to do with the City's zoning bylaws, and the variances that Irving is asking for in their application. At the end of the day we have planning laws, and a process around reviewing applications, they have to abide by it just like the rest of us.

I'm tired of the argument, "it's their land, they can do what they want." When has that ever been true in our contemporary era? Every landowner has to adhere to planning rules, building codes, environmental regulations, etc. and to suggest that a landowner is somehow above those undermines the entire system designed to protect us. I own a plot of land along a scenic river in NB, but I don't get to set up a hog farm there tomorrow just because I own the land, same as I don't get to clearcut it to make a parking lot, or build a home with un-stamped lumber.

I understand EnvisionSaintJohn's stance on the permanent re-zoning, and share the concern that the parking lot is eventually going to be replaced by another facility, but at least by re-zoning it as Commercial the property taxes from it would grow significantly more than if it remained as Open Space. I'm interested in seeing what Council does with this one, personally I think the Staff recommendation should be upheld and put an end to companies offloading the cost of doing business onto the general public. You can't convince me that a company with hundreds of brilliant employees and the engineers capable of designing and project managing a multi-billion dollar mill can't, for example, figure out how to accommodate the construction of an on-site parking garage into their timelines.

It's an interesting case of planning ethics, and the narrative of throwing planners under the bus - or in this case, the single-passenger vehicles - just for following good planning procedures in the face of economic pressure.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

being given permission for temporary non conforming use. (Also assuming the city has the power to give such permission)

Wouldn’t the city have ultimate authority on parking and zoning matters for a privately owned property within the city limits? Or would the Fire Marshall in Fredericton get to step in?

Allowing the parkland to be used as a temporary car park while they are given time to build a parkade elsewhere on the mill site seems entirely preferable to granting permanent rezoning to stable commercial for a non permanent parking lot, especially considering its a prime piece of real estate at a prominent location in the city.

Gotta hope sensible urban planning prevails here.

[sailor734]

I can't see them building a permanent parking structure for what is said to be a temporary need. A remote lot with shuttle buses would seem to be the logical fallback position.

[DyAm00394]

AllNewBrunswick is reporting that Maple Leaf Homes has purchased 5 acres of land in Rothesay. This is in addition to the 15 acres they recently just bought here in Saint John on Thornbrough Street.

[DyAm00394]

Two proposed Public Hearing dates on March 10th, 2025.

• 0 Bayside Drive (PID 55228134): To facilitate the development of rural residential subdivision.
  
  
• 801 Loch Lomond Road (part of PID: 00436659): To permit the development of an Animal Shelter and support facilities.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I can't see them building a permanent parking structure for what is said to be a temporary need. A remote lot with shuttle buses would seem to be the logical fallback position.

I thought the mill expansion was supposed to create 600 new long term jobs? Also, isn’t a lot of the expansion going to be built on top of space current used for parking?

I think there will be a long term need for more parking spaces that may very well necessitate the construction of a parkade.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I thought the mill expansion was supposed to create 600 new long term jobs? Also, isn’t a lot of the expansion going to be built on top of space current used for parking?

I think there will be a long term need for more parking spaces that may very well necessitate the construction of a parkade.

I may be wrong but I never got the impression that this upgrade would result in greatly increased permanent employment. 600 is a huge number.
I also understood the need for expanded parking was for contractors and trades working on the upgrades, not new employees.

[DyAm00394]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I thought the mill expansion was supposed to create 600 new long term jobs? Also, isn’t a lot of the expansion going to be built on top of space current used for parking?

I think there will be a long term need for more parking spaces that may very well necessitate the construction of a parkade.

No, I recall the representative with the company that spoke at the meeting said no new long-term jobs created with this mill project. Maybe zero to maybe 1 additional employee he said. The need for this additional parking is during the short-term construction. (Contractors, construction crew, etc). He said keeping the new parking lot at the park after the project completion would be ideal/helpful to have for future shutdowns and such. Currently during shutdowns, he said they shuttle employees. When not being used, he said it could be used for community events like farmers markets and such.

He said no to the parking garage idea, (that will house 1,000 spots, 500 he needs and 500 that is currently there), because it will take 18 months to build and there will be no parking spots for the employees nor the contractors and construction crew.

The project's website said this about the 600 jobs: "Lead to an increase of 600 jobs supported in the forest supply chain and from induced effects". Don't think that means all those jobs at the mill, just in the supply chain in general.