Manitoba | Highways

[bomberjet]

It's all the added highway and road works that inflate the prices.

If they were just adding the interchange, and not reconstructing the highway. $30-$60 million would do it. This is what they are doing in Edmonton on the Yellowhead. Some widening. But otherwise the road remains as is.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

It's all the added highway and road works that inflate the prices.

If they were just adding the interchange, and not reconstructing the highway. $30-$60 million would do it. This is what they are doing in Edmonton on the Yellowhead. Some widening. But otherwise the road remains as is.

Yeah the issue I guess is that there are a huge number of ancillary projects that are tacked on. To be fair, it's not like all they have to do is pile up dirt and build the structure. Basically the whole south perimeter needs to be reconstructed.

If they ever get around to upgrading some of the city roads to freeways, the projects are going to be collossally expensive given that the word forethought hasn't entered the vernacular of city planners for the last century.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Pth 1, 3, 6, 15, 52, 59.

They had already released a lot of this information in their previous investment plan. This is the previous document: https://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/myhis/pdf/2022_multi-year_highways_investment_strategy.pdf

New document page: https://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/myhis/index.html
https://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/myhis/pdf/multi-year_highways_investment_strategy.pdf

Thank you for that. Yeah, the province does like to announce things over and over again, ha.

Three of those are reasonably ambitious projects (the ones > 10 km) but the others are pretty marginal. I guess the McGillivray project packs some punch too since it's basically in an urban area.

I was a little surprised to see 15 on the list, I thought the province was prioritizing the Oakbank corridor. But personally I'd be fine with twinning 15 and calling it a day, no need for a new highway there.

I still don't get how on earth even the simplest interchanges cost so much here. There is always some crazy curveball in every situation that ends up doubling the cost, or more. PTH 100/3, whoops, we discovered a leprechaun gold mine in the way and it will cost $100 million to buy out the leprechauns, total project cost for the diamond $220 million, or something wild like that. Is there never a simple, basic $30 million diamond scenario as there is in seemingly every other province? I used this new diverging diamond interchange in Ontario last week... it opened last year and it cost a measly $55 million.

[Wpgstvsouth94]

Originally Posted by WildCake

@Biff - Looks like we have to reset our expectations that a diamond costs 30-60 million in this province. They're essentially budgeting 130-150 mil per interchange.

McGillivray would be by far the easiest to build as both Perimeter and McGillivray are being rerouted (east and south, respectively), so they can build the overpass in a field for the most part. Yet 150 million is earmarked for that project.

I hope they come in way cheaper and they can use that cash for additional Perimeter improvements.

It includes the diamond and the rail over pass in that total amount.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg

almost every city in NA has a system like that, why would we decide to be different? and it's much more than 5 minutes when you consider the # of lights.

bypass around Morris is much needed as well!

Following the model of every North American city in terms of urban development is not ideal especially when that model has been a factor in our city being broke. Also, it’s really not more then 5 minutes unless one is unlucky and hits all the red lights.

I’m not saying the freeway is unnecessary, it’s just that instead of investing $100s of millions for bypasses and interchanges so that truckers can avoid the city and move around the periphery faster, why not spend that money for people living in Winnipeg travelling through the city?

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Following the model of every North American city in terms of urban development is not ideal especially when that model has been a factor in our city being broke. Also, it’s really not more then 5 minutes unless one is unlucky and hits all the red lights.

I’m not saying the freeway is unnecessary, it’s just that instead of investing $100s of millions for bypasses and interchanges so that truckers can avoid the city and move around the periphery faster, why not spend that money for people living in Winnipeg travelling through the city?

I would agree that the Province has not prioritized transit infrastructure (or any municipal relations) until this last year. The PCs were happy with the austerity measures - needed to some degree - at the expense of new projects.

That being said, Winnipeg has no fricken idea what it's doing with rapid transit and is content with electrifying the fleet as its major capital project. There's no finalized plan for the next extension of BRT so the Province (or the feds) is not in position to approve or deny funds. The current proposal to run BRT to Transcona is an excuse to get money to rehab the Louise bridge and is not finalized. No definite plan for the Union Station conversion. Theres just nothing ready to be funded.

It's up to the city to request funding or these kinds of things. The Province doesn't just announce "hey here's 200 mil for rapid transit, have fun". They would provide funding for a defined municipal project if there was one.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by WildCake

I would agree that the Province has not prioritized transit infrastructure (or any municipal relations) until this last year. The PCs were happy with the austerity measures - needed to some degree - at the expense of new projects.

That being said, Winnipeg has no fricken idea what it's doing with rapid transit and is content with electrifying the fleet as its major capital project. There's no finalized plan for the next extension of BRT so the Province (or the feds) is not in position to approve or deny funds. The current proposal to run BRT to Transcona is an excuse to get money to rehab the Louise bridge and is not finalized. No definite plan for the Union Station conversion. There's just nothing ready to be funded.

It's up to the city to request funding or these kinds of things. The Province doesn't just announce "hey here's 200 mil for rapid transit, have fun". They would provide funding for a defined municipal project if there was one.

Well it is certainly true that the municipal government has no idea what it's doing, the Provincial Government is also based in Winnipeg and more importantly Downtown Winnipeg. With the amount of authority provincial governments hold over municipal governments they could have a lot more influence on what type of infrastructure projects are prioritized.

If the party in power had enough political will to say we need more transit immediately instead of funding highway projects then I would bet there would be a lot more pressure on the city to get the ball rolling. Of course we don't have that currently with the PC's in power, and I'm not going to get my hopes up on the NDP making this move either.

That one graph showing the St. Anne's interchange being "climate resilient" is quite hilarious though.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by WildCake

@Biff - Looks like we have to reset our expectations that a diamond costs 30-60 million in this province. They're essentially budgeting 130-150 mil per interchange.

McGillivray would be by far the easiest to build as both Perimeter and McGillivray are being rerouted (east and south, respectively), so they can build the overpass in a field for the most part. Yet 150 million is earmarked for that project.

I hope they come in way cheaper and they can use that cash for additional Perimeter improvements.

The difference in the projects is, St Mary's is $135m but includes a ton of new roadwork aligning the new overpass and how it connects to St Mary's south of the Perimeter.

The $150m cost of the McGillivray interchange includes a significant portion of new roadway with the perimeter alignment moving east.

The St Anne's diamond is very straight forward and doesn't include any new roadway alignments. Everything is supposed to fit within the existing right-of-way (there needs to be a couple of property acquisitions south of the Perimeter). The Aimes Rd access road and bridgework has already been completed. The bulk of the St Anne's project price is dedicated to the rail overpass.

[bomberjet]

The costs aren't really that outrageous for the St. Anne's/St Mary's projects. $286 million for ~7km of reconstructed PTH 100, related roadworks and the interchanges/overpass.

Not cheap but not overly expensive IMO. PTH 100 will be brand new freeway when those are done.

[esquire]

I wonder how much more it would have cost to have made 100 6 lanes from the South Perimeter Bridge to Lagimodiere as part of these projects?

[bomberjet]

Adding 50% more lanes. So probably not 50%, but maybe 25% to 30% more.

The actual structure part of the work is not that expensive compared to the overall budget. It's the concrete and gravel.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

I wonder how much more it would have cost to have made 100 6 lanes from the South Perimeter Bridge to Lagimodiere as part of these projects?

That would be a great idea. I hope that there are more announcements soon. The six lanes from Lag to Kenaston would be a smart move I think. They should just commit and get it done.

[Biff]

I would gladly sacrifice the 6 lanes for now for additional grade separations. The bridge over the Red River will need to be replaced (or add another bridge) which isn't in any of the near future projects (costly). Two lanes of hwy that are grade separated are much safer and more efficient than 6 lanes with lights and uncontrolled access.

I would prefer if they grade separated the whole perimeter (all new separations would be built with 6 lane capacity though) and constructed the additional lanes in the future. Focus the money on safety first.

[esquire]

I was thinking 6 lanes from the east end of the bridge to Lagimodiere would be a nice, easy "phase 1" to an eventual 6 laning of the busiest stretch of the south Perimeter all the way to 330. Doing the western part of that from the bridge to 330 would be more expensive because of the structures that would be impacted, i.e. the bridge over the Red River, the interchange at Pembina and the rail overpass.

[Komatiite]

Twinning highways 59 and 52 to Mitchell (Steinbach)? Cool, but dude... not placing any bets on that happening.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by esquire

I was thinking 6 lanes from the east end of the bridge to Lagimodiere would be a nice, easy "phase 1" to an eventual 6 laning of the busiest stretch of the south Perimeter all the way to 330. Doing the western part of that from the bridge to 330 would be more expensive because of the structures that would be impacted, i.e. the bridge over the Red River, the interchange at Pembina and the rail overpass.

The South Perimeter Study only found that 6 lanes would be needed between Kenaston and the Red river bridges (essentially the eastern tail end the of Pembina interchange ramps) for the initial phase. The Red River crossing is maintained at 4 lanes which I found surprising.

Here's an exerp from page 4:

The Initial Stage includes four lanes (two per direction) on PTH 100, except the segment between Kenaston Boulevard and the Red River, which requires additional lanes.

https://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/hpd/pth100/pdf/south_perimeter_design_study_final_report.pdf

Now they don't define initial stage/ultimate stage but the traffic volumes were forecasted to 2048, so assuming about a mid-point between 2018 and 2048 where ultimate stage designs should be used would be roughly 2033.

I think we'll be greatly surprised when there's no more stop/go clusters of traffic and flow is a lot smoother, especially with heavy trucks.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by WildCake

The South Perimeter Study only found that 6 lanes would be needed between Kenaston and the Red river bridges (essentially the eastern tail end the of Pembina interchange ramps) for the initial phase. The Red River crossing is maintained at 4 lanes which I found surprising.

Here's an exerp from page 4:

The Initial Stage includes four lanes (two per direction) on PTH 100, except the segment between Kenaston Boulevard and the Red River, which requires additional lanes.

https://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/hpd/pth100/pdf/south_perimeter_design_study_final_report.pdf

Now they don't define initial stage/ultimate stage but the traffic volumes were forecasted to 2048, so assuming about a mid-point between 2018 and 2048 where ultimate stage designs should be used would be roughly 2033.

I think we'll be greatly surprised when there's no more stop/go clusters of traffic and flow is a lot smoother, especially with heavy trucks.

"The Ultimate Stage will likely happen well in the future (the Initial Stage was designed to accommodate
forecast 2048 traffic levels) in a gradual fashion. Due to the uncertainty in when the Ultimate Stage will
occur, an implementation plan has not been developed for it as part of this study"

From the report at page 18. Looks like they intend to hobble along with the "initial stage" indefinitely...

[Hockey]

Originally Posted by Biff

I would gladly sacrifice the 6 lanes for now for additional grade separations. The bridge over the Red River will need to be replaced (or add another bridge) which isn't in any of the near future projects (costly). Two lanes of hwy that are grade separated are much safer and more efficient than 6 lanes with lights and uncontrolled access.

I would prefer if they grade separated the whole perimeter (all new separations would be built with 6 lane capacity though) and constructed the additional lanes in the future. Focus the money on safety first.

^^^This

[bomberjet]

Im thinking McGillivray will be somehwere in between the initial and ultimate designs. With McGillivray itself on the shortlist for twinning, it would make sense to build the ultimate stage twin bridge design. But go with the initial stage for the rest of the roadworks.

At some point, a North Perimeter program will come online as well. They either are or were going to be in the functional design stage. They did the safety plan and pre functional plan a couple years ago now.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by WildCake

The South Perimeter Study only found that 6 lanes would be needed between Kenaston and the Red river bridges (essentially the eastern tail end the of Pembina interchange ramps) for the initial phase. The Red River crossing is maintained at 4 lanes which I found surprising.

That isn't accurate. Traffic counts have shown Portage and the Perimeter to have very similar traffic counts to St Marys and traffic is actually growing in volume there. The design of that stretch shows that even 6 lanes isn't sufficient and the plan is to have roughly 8 lanes of traffic between the Assiniboine and Portage, one lane each direction being to feed into the Portage diamond and 3 lanes of through traffic on both sides. Also it isn't an immediate six lanes but starting the process to move that direction. When the Roblin overpass went through it's overhaul shortly before the pandemic it was changed from 4 lanes to six lanes although two of them are currently ghost lanes. They took out the former middle pillar for the bridge and changed the walls under the bridge to be straight retaining walls instead of the slopes most underpasses have.