[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Buckey]

I think that we must discount a lot of the people currently being quoted on this center. I feel that anything Ramia or Mcrea say are obviously biased. Lydon Lynch are likely not objective. The heritage group well they dont even know what they are against. They answer NO before the question is asked.

I march to my own drummer in many ways. I am trying to look at this different ways and am trying to like the project. Right now we pay $3 Million a year to the TCL. Now we are being asked for $50 Million up front and about $15 Million a year for a new center including new operating losses. Lets ignore the feds contribution will the new center be 5 times as good?

I know its a simplistic way of looking at it but its complicated so I tried the sq foot way and this way. I just dont like renting two ground level floors overlooking the economy shoe shop for that type of money while pouring yearly profits intop someones pocket and paying off his mortgage

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The fact that you term the convention business as a declining business indicates that you are basing your opinions on the anti-development rhetoric. I have been going to large conventions for many years and the only decline that I have seen is due to the current recession. By the time the convention centre is complete then the recession will be over. So now it a good time to build it, during a lull in activity. The opposition to the convention centre initially focused on its height, all the economic rhetoric against it was simply to put a halt to a tall development. So I consider it to be a lot of anti-development garbage.

Completely agree...the only reason the Save the View people are playing the number sgame because they now they have no case on the view from the hill.

[halifaxboyns]

I found Victor's comments pretty telling on the business community perspective. He batted off the issue of the view from citadell hill in an instant and moved on.

McCrea is obviously biased and I think any other developer would be - part of the up in the area issue is the office component. I've done some research in hopes I'd find an example, but haven't seen anything regarding condos attached to a convention centre. Certainly if the office component is an issue, why not swap it out? Or as others have pointed out - convert the older office towers that empty out into something different. That old office building on Spring Garden Road could probably be converted to a hotel or even loft type condos with some effort.

As I understand the project (fenwick can correct me; I think he's done a lot more research into it than I) there is no up front cost to the Province or the City. We only pay once the building is open and operating.

The fact that Rank is saying the design was preliminary is pretty typical. I've dealt with land uses changes (rezonings) for projects time and time again - half if not 90% of the time the sketches people see for the end project are preliminary. I had one here in Calgary that was for a seniors complex that was pretty impressive - now the concept is totally different.

If they do build more of the convention centre above ground to animate the street, I'm of the belief that it should only be the gathering space. The actual convention meeting rooms should remain underground or in an area where light can't cause problems. If we want this to succeed we must ensure the space will function well and part of that is ensuring that any electronic presentations can be seen with a projector.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Buckey

I think that we must discount a lot of the people currently being quoted on this center. I feel that anything Ramia or Mcrea say are obviously biased. Lydon Lynch are likely not objective. The heritage group well they dont even know what they are against. They answer NO before the question is asked.

I march to my own drummer in many ways. I am trying to look at this different ways and am trying to like the project. Right now we pay $3 Million a year to the TCL. Now we are being asked for $50 Million up front and about $15 Million a year for a new center including new operating losses. Lets ignore the feds contribution will the new center be 5 times as good?

I know its a simplistic way of looking at it but its complicated so I tried the sq foot way and this way. I just dont like renting two ground level floors overlooking the economy shoe shop for that type of money while pouring yearly profits intop someones pocket and paying off his mortgage

Buckey, this is not right - it is not $50 million up front and $15 million per year to operate. Is is either $46.7 million per year for the 3 levels of government plus about 2.9 miilion in annual operating expenses or it will be $57 million x 2 (NS and HRM) = $114 million dollars amortized over 25 years ($10.2 million/year) starting in the year 2014 plus the 2.9 million per year to operate. If the 3 levels of government decide to pay in lump sum payments, then it is usually spread over the construction period. If the 3 levels of government finance it this way then they will not be paying the $10.2 million per year.

It will be either:
1) Pay-as-they-go - $46.7 million dollars for the 3 levels of government as construction proceeds over 3 - 4 years plus $2.9 million/year for operating expenses
or
2) Layaway Plan (no money paid until the year 2014) - 10.2 million per year starting in 2014 for 25 years plus $2.9 million/year for operating expenses. This has no payments until the year 2014.

(source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1206931.html )

Officials said at a briefing last week that the province and Halifax Regional Municipality would cover the rest of the cost in a 25-year capital lease. The annual lease payment would be $10.2 million, plus another $2.9 million in annual maintenance and upgrading costs.

Dexter said Wednesday the funding details still have to be negotiated. Halifax regional council plans to discuss the project at a meeting next Tuesday, while the province has sent a funding application to the federal government.

My feeling is that you are purposely trying to inflate the numbers. If you want to make a legitimate case against the convention centre then it would be best not to treat us like idiots and use Heritage Trust tactics.

[halifaxboyns]

Against: Too big, too costly

By HOWARD EPSTEIN
Thu, Oct 14 - 4:53 AM

MLA Howard Epstein (ERIC WYNNE / Staff)

The disappointing and wrong-headed decision of the provincial cabinet is not a green light for the convention centre proposal.

It is a cost-shared proposal and attention now has to shift to the two other government partners, Ottawa and the Halifax Regional Municipality. Pressure should be put on both of those governments not to get involved. The city’s property taxpayers, especially, cannot afford it. And Parks Canada has gone on record opposing the height of the towers because of negative effects on the Citadel.

Here are some of the reasons not to fund this proposal:

•Under city zoning rules, heights are limited on these two blocks, but if a publicly funded convention centre is included, any development can be twice as high. The province’s funding triggers tall towers that could not otherwise be built. The province is funding blockage of the free public view from Citadel Hill.

•This is hugely expensive: $7 million for each of the province and city per year for 25 years.

•City property taxpayers will have to pay the same amount. This will put upward pressure on taxes. Homeowners are tapped out. We can’t afford this.

•The tourism sector is quite healthy. It does not need a big infusion of cash.

•The Halifax Regional Municipality is the area of the province least in need of a cash infusion.

•If the province wants to make capital investments in the Halifax Regional Municipality, there are lots of other projects it could fund.

•The city’s downtown needs development, but not this one. Human-scale projects work in the downtown. A lot have been built and are entirely successful (Prince George Hotel, the Marriott Courtyard, the Sheraton Four Point, the additions to Neptune Theatre, the Cambridge Suites).

•In a time of restraint, while the province attempts to bring the budget back into balance, why will Nova Scotians accept layoffs of teachers or restraint of wages or delay in capital projects or any other cost-cutting measure, if the province can afford to fund a convention centre?

•This is a P-3 arrangement. The public pays for something the developer will own and we lease back. This never makes sense.

•The projected increase in convention business is very unlikely to materialize. Serious study of convention centres shows they are overbuilt and generally do not live up to advance claims for increased business. Here, the Trade Centre Ltd.’s projections make very dubious assumptions.

•Rather than stimulating the downtown, if this project is ever built it is more likely to stifle other developments. There is not enough demand for Class A expensive downtown office space to support multiple large projects. Other towers approved by city council for the downtown have not been built.

•This is the wrong site. Even apart from blocking the view, there are the problems of building tall towers on narrow downtown streets: the wind and shadow effects on nearby businesses will make Argyle Street unliveable, adjacent small-scale buildings will be overwhelmed and big trucks serving the centre will have to manoeuvre onto streets that are too narrow.

Howard Epstein is the New Democrat MLA for Halifax Chebucto.


I am beyond irate over this...I cannot describe the literal hatred I'm forming for this person. As a former card carrying NDP - I want him out of cabinet...now.

[DigitalNinja]

Yesterday that idiot that replaced Andrew crystal was on maritime morning with Peter Kelly. The idiot was spouting off all these numbers same as everyone who opposes it. (and that idiot on these forums inflating the numbers and trying to wrap his small brain around them(I like personal insults)) anyway and Kelly outright said to him that nothing has been decided on a cost structure yet, all the numbers that are floating around are just one option of many or nit even considered anymore.
Honestly I would much rather my tax money be spent on a convention center, rather than a 50 (appox value not sure what it exactly was but something like that.)million dollar hockey rink or other things that doesn't impact a lot of people. Lots of people will use this convention center and it will only boost the downtown economy which is much needed IMO.

[someone123]

Some of his points are correct but he is carefully crafting an argument designed to convince a reader to oppose the development, not trying to present a balanced view.

One of the weird points in this article is about the province "funding blockages of views". This is a bizarre way to look at the HRM by Design bonus system which was precisely designed to give the government more leverage in deals like this. The public can leverage the value of increased height to developers in order to get a better deal than what would happen with no incentive (no sweetheart deals for the province if the office and hotel towers can be built either way). The post-bonus heights were also set as part of the process so this is not a surprise.

Similarly I think the arguments about who needs a cash infusion are particularly weak. With HRM generating more than half of the province's tax revenues and most of the economic activity I don't think building a major development once every 30 years downtown requires a huge amount of justification.

People well-versed in urban design would also point out that some of the short developments Epstein holds up as shining examples are in fact pretty terrible in a variety of ways that have nothing whatsoever to do with height (and conversely, many good but tall buildings exist in Halifax). He clearly knows very little about what makes good development since he did not choose better examples.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I am beyond irate over this...I cannot describe the literal hatred I'm forming for this person. As a former card carrying NDP - I want him out of cabinet...now.

Thankfully he is not in cabinet.

But yeah, I am with you. I saw him walking out of the market a couple of weeks ago and I flipped him the bird as I drove past.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Thankfully he is not in cabinet.

But yeah, I am with you. I saw him walking out of the market a couple of weeks ago and I flipped him the bird as I drove past.

When I lived in Halifax and would participate in gay pride (either march or was on the committee); during pride day we'd always see the NDP there, they always are.

I'd always say hello to him and other NDP leaders, since I was a party member and it wasn't uncommon for me to be involved in events. As much as I would still be polite and probably support the NDP if I moved back; if I move into Howard's ward - I'd vote communist before I'd vote for him. I'm right there with you - I'd not only flip him the bird, I'd give him a piece of my mind.

[Buckey]

I will double check that but for now I want the REAL Jobs number. AS I have clearly deomnstrtated the jobs promises after construction at 28,000 Jobs over ten years an incremental 12,000 JOBS over the ten years or 1,200 NEW JOBS over ten years. I got out the old calculator and said dooh de doh that means we have currently have 1,500 jobs at TCL. well doh de doh the salareis wages and benefits for one year at trade center currently is 4 Million a year so out comes the old caluclator doh de doh The average person makes $2,700 a year. Doh de Doh

Lets talk FTEs I would say TCL has 100 FTE and new new center will not be increasing that ten fold. even taking the HYPE number they tricked everyone with of 28,000 which was really 2,800 jobs that is noweher near 2,800 FTEs.

Why is that every stab I take at this gets worse.. Do all these new jobs include the hotel? They sure monitored the Offshore development we better measure the results versus the plan of this one

[Buckey]

Am I making an idiot of myself with this JOBS thing? stop me and explain my errors if so I will not post until tomorrow.
https://conventioncentreinfo.com/documents/studies/

all of the studies match up to the recent presentation. Roughly they say we get 1,200 new JOBS and imply we have 1,500 Jobs and they say DIRECT but I must be misunderstanding what a direct JOB is. I assume it is WTCC or even a TCL employee. These do not marry up to anything in the existing financials or furture revenue flows.

Min wage at 40 hours a week runs you $24,000 a year all in. current wages are $4 Million for entire TCL and entore TCL revenues are $15 Million.

http://www.tradecentrelimited.com/en/home/abouttcl/corporatepolicies/annualreports.aspx


The jobs numbersd are way out of whack with the revenue numbers in all cases. The entire hotel must be included in numbers. Could someone else take a whack at this - maybe somebody PRO Nova Center as I am obviously anti at this point. Iapologize in advance if I messed up this.

and to the person who said something about a second set of eyes altready looked at it. ah yes it was KP when he called me smart. Anyway They looked over the and issued a report a long time ago. I want someone to audit this specific proposal.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Regarding the current WTCC - it has served its purpose. If the province or municipality don't want it then they can tear it down and turn it into a park. Or hang onto it and build a bigger better Metro Centre in 10 years time with 15,000 seats.

I wonder if the MC/WTCC could be renovated, and have the ice surface rotated 90 degrees so it runs east-west. There would then be a lot more space on the sides for upper decks.

[Buckey]

This report when I opened it was dated July 2009 but it is actualy more recent as it is detailed.
https://conventioncentreinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Deloitte-Report.pdf

It obviously has reveiwed some of the existing proposal but does say that the revnue sharing model needs to be determined

It is hard on the eyes I would really need the entore weekend to read all these rports and would need hard copies and then maybe I will get my head out of my ass because I know that is what many are thinking about me. IM new to this stuff but not new to business proosals in the private sector.

[DigitalNinja]

They point I was trying to make in my post is that nothing is set in stone yet, and those job number are just speculation it is not worth discussing this now. This is a sky scraper forum, not how many jobs will come from something.
There will be jobs created which is the main thing with this. from the initial development to the planners, sales, hotel, cleaners in the builds any stores that open up in them etc etc. There are lots of oppertunities.
Also there may be more stores opening up close by or in tourist areas due to a bigger convention center which once again will contribute.
Also there may be temp jobs with different conventions going on, each one may hire someone for a week or something.
We should not be debating should we have a new convention center, but that what this will bring to Halifax.
FYI, like I said HRM spent a great amount on that new hockey arena in bedford, not sure how much but close to 50 million. There will be no where near the same amount of jobs come from an ice rink as a convention center, so your argument is a bit of a moot point. You should have been protesting agains the arena instead.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I wonder if the MC/WTCC could be renovated, and have the ice surface rotated 90 degrees so it runs east-west. There would then be a lot more space on the sides for upper decks.

Eventually (hopefully within 10 - 15 years) it would be good to see a new 15,000 seat Metro Centre similar to the new MTS Arena in Winnipeg. I think, as you do, that the rink would have to be rotated 90 degrees but it might be less expensive to start from scratch and tear the current Metro Centre down at that time. In the meantime, Mayor Kelly has mentioned adding more washrooms to the Metro Centre if the city takes over the current WTCC (I am not sure where I read it?). Later I can see how the Winnipeg MTS centre would fit on the current Metro Centre site (with the WTCC torn down).

Personally, I hope that Halifax will have a new outdoor stadium and CFL team and then start thinking about a new Metro Centre down the road (hopefully both will happen in the not too distant future).

[Buckey]

Digital Ninja,
I never liked the quad plex and I think the JOBs number is very on point and on topic. saying I should be against something else is the same as all the wahoos saying this money could be better spent on something else.

The jobs numbers are being used to promote this project. I am debating those numbers

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

Yesterday that idiot that replaced Andrew crystal was on maritime morning with Peter Kelly. The idiot was spouting off all these numbers same as everyone who opposes it. (and that idiot on these forums inflating the numbers and trying to wrap his small brain around them(I like personal insults)) anyway and Kelly outright said to him that nothing has been decided on a cost structure yet, all the numbers that are floating around are just one option of many or nit even considered anymore.

That idiot is Rick Howe and yes, he is a moron. Always railing against "the man" and against any sort of development. He and Kommissar Epstein make for a good pair of jokers -- both worthless.

If D. Dexter had a backbone he would boot der Kommissar and his followers out of caucus and let them sit out in the cold.

[DigitalNinja]

My point was there is nothing concrete on this yet, neither the design, jobs, etc... And you don't know how they are finding out the job numbers and what they are counting as a job. They are probably counting every possible thing that goes with the convention center.

[Buckey]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

My point was there is nothing concrete on this yet, neither the design, jobs, etc... And you don't know how they are finding out the job numbers and what they are counting as a job. They are probably counting every possible thing that goes with the convention center.

Cheers I guess I need to drill down into all of these numbers. Id love to see some more cranes in our city matter of fact are not some devlopment stalled by the developers themselves

[musicman]

You can't turn the rink 90 degrees because of both the roof and how the west side seats are part of the structure of the rink... The main support steel runs accross the rink not from end to end. Basically the whole thing would have to be redesigned, re-engineered, and rebuilt costing way way more money than building a new one. Besides many rinks that have been rebuilt in the manner have sever weight restrictions on roof loads which are not good for concerts.