[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Thank god KeithP was wrong. Again.

Sorry Keith... couldn't resist

Don't mind being wrong on this one. But you can see why I was faked out by the Birkenstock brigade that makes up the NDP core, since they are all fiercely opposed to this. Another MLA has spoken out against it (too bad the party whips won't force them to toe the party line or get out), and the left-wingers are flipping out at the Coast and elsewhere because they are spending money on something designed to grow the economy instead of pouring it down the welfare/health care sinkhole.

We'll see if the govt's resolve lasts thru the endless rounds of public hearings, media flagellation, etc.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Thanks for having my back on the CH site Halifaxboyns ;-) LOL

Anytime.

I absolutely cannot STAND this whole can't do attitude in Halifax. Like someone said on the CH site, we can't do concerts, can't do a convention centre, can't do bridges, can't do transit.

My god, shut up and stop complaining people. UGH!
(Can you tell i'm having a bad day?) Why can't people put forward an idea then? Is that so hard? Yes we have a defecit and yes we have debt - who doesn't. It's not good and it has to be dealt with - I agree with that. But you can't deal with debt unless you have good levels of income and with the population trend in NS being that more people will be in retirement versus working - that's going to be a problem. Interest rates are not going to be this low forever but while they are - we should take advantage of them to some extent.

Besides, no one for certain can say that this project is going to fail (just as no one can say it will succeed). Some on the CH posted that without the Metro Centre we would never host the events and concerts we do there because the forum was too small and no one complains about that anymore - that is very true. If this puts Halifax on the same market level competition as Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver even a couple of convention that go to these larger markets come to Halifax - the spin off could be big (need for more hotel rooms, increased tourism as a spin off to attending the conference, increased airline capacity and new flights, etc.).

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Don't mind being wrong on this one. But you can see why I was faked out by the Birkenstock brigade that makes up the NDP core, since they are all fiercely opposed to this. Another MLA has spoken out against it (too bad the party whips won't force them to toe the party line or get out), and the left-wingers are flipping out at the Coast and elsewhere because they are spending money on something designed to grow the economy instead of pouring it down the welfare/health care sinkhole.

We'll see if the govt's resolve lasts thru the endless rounds of public hearings, media flagellation, etc.

Total agree with the party whip comment. Frankly; the NS NDP has failed for me on this. When I lived in Halifax, I was a stonch orange. I helped the NDP wherever I could. Not anymore. If they aren't prepared to use the party whip and put all the ministers in line - then I have no faith in them. This isn't time for people like Epstein and others to speak their minds - the leader has made up his mind. Shut up and fall in line or get out.

Oh how I long for the days of the firing squad...oh to dream lol.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Buckey

I have been to the coast website maybe ten times in my life. With all of the conflicting and confusing info I went there to see if they had diseected it any better CTV just reported the $6 million per year outlay for each province and City and we DO NOT own it at the end. he also confirms the 47 million fed money on day one its finished. The one thing still overlooked is the annual operatinf deficit so lets add 2 -3 -4 -5 Million a year to that.

Here is a link to the article http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/canada/nova..._fund_halifax_convention_centre/0c7fd91d . It is difficult to confirm if Rank Inc. really will take ownership at the end of 25 years - this might just be added by the author of the article. Since various terms can exist with a lease it is difficult to say what the terms are. At the end of 25 years the province might only be required to pay a small amount to purchase it. In any event, the convention centre isn't going anywhere - at the end of 25 years the province might prefer to have Rank Inc. or some other private company run it. The province would still get the benefit of the jobs and HST.

Many people decide to lease new cars, apartments and offices since it is cheaper than buying them outright. I have to assume that the province will decide whether leasing or buying it outright is the best option. If the province wanted the option to buy and Rank Inc. didn't offer that option then the province could have just walked away from the deal. I don't think anyone is forcing the province into a deal that they don't want. In fact the NDP has set the terms of the deal so that there are no payments until after the next election.

The $2 million - $3 million additional operating cost that you mentioned is all included in the annual cost (including the capital lease). Since convention centres generate direct revenue, most of the revenue will come from conventions booked at the convention center. But even if there is a shortfall, the province can still recover money from HST on convention goers who would not be in the province otherwise.

[JustinMacD]

Can everyone please email CBC with their support for this project. It'll be the topic of tomorrow's piece on the news where they read emails and phone calls for the certain topic.

I think their address is [email protected].

The topic was "Do you support the decision to build the convention centre?". Knowing CBC, they'll probably only play the anti-development emails/phone calls.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Here is a link to the article http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/canada/nova..._fund_halifax_convention_centre/0c7fd91d . It is difficult to confirm if Rank Inc. really will take ownership at the end of 25 years - this might just be added by the author of the article. Since various terms can exist with a lease it is difficult to say what the terms are. At the end of 25 years the province might only be required to pay a small amount to purchase it. In any event, the convention centre isn't going anywhere - at the end of 25 years the province might prefer to have Rank Inc. or some other private company run it. The province would still get the benefit of the jobs and HST.

Many people decide to lease new cars, apartments and offices since it is cheaper than buying them outright. I have to assume that the province will decide whether leasing or buying it outright is the best option. If the province wanted the option to buy and Rank Inc. didn't offer that option then the province could have just walked away from the deal. I don't think anyone is forcing the province into a deal that they don't want. In fact the NDP has set the terms of the deal so that there are no payments until after the next election.

The $2 million - $3 million additional operating cost that you mentioned is all included in the annual cost (including the capital lease). Since convention centres generate direct revenue, most of the revenue will come from conventions booked at the convention center. But even if there is a shortfall, the province can still recover money from HST on convention goers who would not be in the province otherwise.

Rank owns it after 25 years.

Overheard a councilor on CBC stating that the next hurdle is the deal dexter has made requires the city to take the old centre. Since the city renewed there leases just this year for an additional 10 years, and subsequently own there offices in alderney landing i'd say this is going to be interesting detail as the future use is still unknown. It would be a terrible deal to have the city take the old centre and have no use.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Don't mind being wrong on this one. But you can see why I was faked out by the Birkenstock brigade that makes up the NDP core, since they are all fiercely opposed to this. Another MLA has spoken out against it (too bad the party whips won't force them to toe the party line or get out), and the left-wingers are flipping out at the Coast and elsewhere because they are spending money on something designed to grow the economy instead of pouring it down the welfare/health care sinkhole.

We'll see if the govt's resolve lasts thru the endless rounds of public hearings, media flagellation, etc.

You know what? I actually agree with you.

It is time for the government to man up and push through things to improve the development situation in Halifax, rather than kow-tow to the HT wingnuts.

Plus... people go up a notch in my books when they admit they were wrong. :-P Maybe I should cut you a break on something sometime. LOL

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Rank owns it after 25 years.

Overheard a councilor on CBC stating that the next hurdle is the deal dexter has made requires the city to take the old centre. Since the city renewed there leases just this year for an additional 10 years, and subsequently own there offices in alderney landing i'd say this is going to be interesting detail as the future use is still unknown. It would be a terrible deal to have the city take the old centre and have no use.

But is that bad? In 25 years the municipality might want a larger convention centre (or possibly smaller). Then they won't be stuck with a convention centre that they might not want. It is no different than the municipality and province leasing office space. I don't think that they own any of the buildings that they lease space in. That is an obvious statement on my part - but leasing or owning is a business decision and quite often the province decides to lease.

Regarding the current WTCC - it has served its purpose. If the province or municipality don't want it then they can tear it down and turn it into a park. Or hang onto it and build a bigger better Metro Centre in 10 years time with 15,000 seats. I read that all the province wanted in return for the old WTCC was a land swap. Isn't it basically all owned by the same people anyway (the HRM is part of the province of Nova Scotia).

PS: The municipality won't have to take it over for another 3 - 4 years once the new convention centre is complete - by that time they can find a use for it. In the meantime it will continue to generate revenue.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

But is that bad? In 25 years the municipality might want a larger convention centre (or possibly smaller). Then they won't be stuck with a convention centre that they might not want. It is no different than the municipality and province leasing office space. I don't think that they own any of the buildings that they lease space in. That is an obvious statement on my part - but leasing or owning is a business decision and quite often the province decides to lease.
).

Well in most captial leases the leasee owns the property. So after 25 years, and not factoring in inflation (a dollar today is not worth as much as a dollar tomorrow) the province and city will foot a total of 325 million for something that would cost only 159?

Herein i bet becomes the problem for the Federal Government, in that they are putting 47 million into this in one lump sum with no ownership afterwards.

I am additionally concerned about the Federal government only required to give this lump sum payment in 2014 or after completion. There has many of times in the history of Nova Scotia where the federal government has not come through, and if that was to become the case what happens then? I rather see the lump sum now, at least then one can feel comfortable.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Rank owns it after 25 years.

Overheard a councilor on CBC stating that the next hurdle is the deal dexter has made requires the city to take the old centre. Since the city renewed there leases just this year for an additional 10 years, and subsequently own there offices in alderney landing i'd say this is going to be interesting detail as the future use is still unknown. It would be a terrible deal to have the city take the old centre and have no use.

Would the councilor on CBC be one of the ones who is against the new convention centre?

It is time for the HRM and province to take a chance and move forward. The convention centre would be a good step forward. The majority of people want to see progress.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

PS: The municipality won't have to take it over for another 3 - 4 years once the new convention centre is complete - by that time they can find a use for it. In the meantime it will continue to generate revenue.

Fair enough, but the centre does not generate revenue. Look at the financial reports, it shows an annual revenue of 2-3 million. That is rent collected from the office tenants within the centre, which i will add are provincial agency tenants. In other words this an accounting "slight of hand" in that the province is paying itself.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Would the councilor on CBC be one of the ones who is against the new convention centre?

It is time for the HRM and province to take a chance and move forward. The convention centre would be a good step forward. The majority of people want to see progress.

Counicilor Outwit. It appeared he wasn't against it, but is concerned that the deal the city will be asked to accept will include taking the old building over, which in his opinion he was lead to believe the city would have no up front cost.

I bet Kelly tries to state the former trade centre will then become the new performing arts centre.

[Wishblade]

I just read a comment on CBC that was so outrageous and funny I just had to post it. I can't believe theres actually people out there like this :

Convention Centre another Government White (Pink) Elephant!!

I am just devastated as are countless others who have campaigned so hard against this bad idea (in all ways)!!. What is wrong with this friggin' NDP government? I thought they would be different. They've approved this project that will suck millions from taxpayers in the whole province who are sick of the cozying up of government with the developer hustlers. This is going to destroy the feeling of Halifax that tourists, students, artists, visitors, nature lovers and responsible citizens love( see the image of the this project superimposed on a picture of present downtown on "Save the View"; lose tons of money (People don't choose Halifax for big corporate conventions; they choose Vancouver, Toronto, or Banff!) and be a huge burden on taxpayers. Why is NS trying to emulate these bigger centres when people come here specifically to see the human scale walking; heritage buildings; the cool quirkiness of that downtown core with its art boutiques; view; old buildings; neat restaurants, etc. I thought the days of the white (pink) elephants coming out of political back room deals would be over with the NDP. People are sick of ugly Maritime Mall, Tower Residence (Wolfville), Fenwick Towers, Railtown (Wolfville) hustled uglifying all that we love in this province. In electing governments with these types of candidates, we, the people have created the monster that is destroying everything we cherish. For what? To increase the girth of these fat cats who can only see dollar signs before their eyes. They stand for nothing but greed and bad taste. Where are the architects to protest this? Where is the group of professional thinkers, urban planners, designers, architects who can lead us out of these bad ideas?

Posted by jonilight3 on the CH.

[sdm]

i found this article and comments interesting as well.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nati...nvention-centre/article1746537/comments/

[Buckey]

I see a lot of pro CC folks.

so I amused myself on the lease idea, Class a office space is what $20/sq ft/yr - combined wh/office in burnside $10 or $12.

Lets ignore the $47 million upfront by the feds

$13,000,000 per year 120,000 square feet. Over $100 per square foot lease -
I need to see a lot more details. WE have a lot of other space and another new waterfront hotel coming and guess what a lot of conventions go to the hotels.

This does not pass the sniff test. 1,200 jobs most of which are min wage. Just doesnt do it for me spinoffs or not

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Well in most captial leases the leasee owns the property. So after 25 years, and not factoring in inflation (a dollar today is not worth as much as a dollar tomorrow) the province and city will foot a total of 325 million for something that would cost only 159?

Herein i bet becomes the problem for the Federal Government, in that they are putting 47 million into this in one lump sum with no ownership afterwards.

I am additionally concerned about the Federal government only required to give this lump sum payment in 2014 or after completion. There has many of times in the history of Nova Scotia where the federal government has not come through, and if that was to become the case what happens then? I rather see the lump sum now, at least then one can feel comfortable.

Agreed - why doesn't the municipality and province pay it over the 3- 4 year construction period. They would save $19 million in interim interest payments (so the cost would only be $140 million) and they would probably get a better interest rate than Rank Inc. This is something that residents can decide over the next couple of months when the NDP said that they would make the final decision (January 14 2011, I believe). A good analogy would be for a person to pay for a new home over a period of a couple of years prior to moving in or paying a mortgage for 25 years. Many people would choose the 25 year mortgage so that a $200,000 home will often end up being at least $400,000 over 25 years (however, if they don't pay it off over the 2 year construction period then they have more money in their pockets to spend - same as the province).

[Buckey]

yeah with a mortgage on a house you get to own it at the end. This developer won a sweet deal.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by sdm

i found this article and comments interesting as well.

I hate when this story is presented in terms of "Saving the Downtown" or (the Globe and Mail managed to make it even worse) "Saving Halifax". The parts of the article about the city declining are wrong. It's also wrong to say there haven't been cranes downtown in 20 year or to suggest that there are large empty storefronts on Spring Garden Road.

The real convention story is about the costs and benefits. The real story of the downtown comes down to multiple separate factors. The office space issue is related to competition with the suburbs. The storefront retail issue is not very closely connected and mostly would be corrected by more residents - it also does not affect very much of the core (75% Barrington).

[Buckey]

Originally Posted by JustinMacD

Can everyone please email CBC with their support for this project. It'll be the topic of tomorrow's piece on the news where they read emails and phone calls for the certain topic.

I think their address is [email protected].

The topic was "Do you support the decision to build the convention centre?". Knowing CBC, they'll probably only play the anti-development emails/phone calls.

Show me the rest of the business case with a compelling reason to pay $100 a square foot for a center that will stay empty most of the time and when in use will fill up the developers hotel.

This needs a fully independent review. A comment at the globe by a CA was very wise - he said get a CA firm with no ties and no vested interest to review this = get the AG to review it NOW not later. Lets get some independent eyes on this deal.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by Buckey

Show me the rest of the business case with a compelling reason to pay $100 a square foot for a center that will stay empty most of the time and when in use will fill up the developers hotel.

This needs a fully independent review. A comment at the globe by a CA was very wise - he said get a CA firm with no ties and no vested interest to review this = get the AG to review it NOW not later. Lets get some independent eyes on this deal.

Worst project in-the-pipeline in Halifax. I agree - full independent review is required. This is the sketchiest deal in a city known for sketchy closed-door deals. This is a poor use of public funds for nothing more than another bad P3 scheme. On top of that, we get a bad design in a worse location. This is prime real estate in the city - these blocks can easily be developed for a healthy profit without public funds.

Using public money to shoehorn a convention centre in a terribly limited site, to replace an already limited site, only demonstrates a lack of foresight, lack of planning skills, and that a few well connected people call all the shots. Dexter, you look like a fool without a clue.