The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

wait, what's wrong with the crosswalk?

It is entertaining to watch folks dodging traffic here.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

A tunnel exists between McAllister and Walmart already, but it’s a huge culvert, actually several going multiple directions and used by fish of many species to move around. The area is a giant [former] tidal marsh, the only tunnels we’re building are going to be full of water.

Pedestrian overpasses I can get behind, especially that west side location discussed above. I know people in that neighbourhood and it drives them crazy to see Sobeys so close but yet so far.

Yeah, you're right, and I trust you know what you're talking about as this is up your alley as I remember. An overpass perhaps then.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Helladog

It is entertaining to watch folks dodging traffic here.

an overpass isn't that crazy then.

Tunnels would be quite the novel approach to connect the West Side and Uptown.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

A pedestrian overpass from Molson Avenue to the ANBL Liquor store would just be fitting.

It's impossible to look at these images and maps and not instantly think "poor planning" . Riverview Drive got a pedestrian overpass, why not Molson Avenue? This is one of the most pedestrian unfriendly locations in the entire city. It's ridiculous homes with walk scores that should be high for being almost on top of a grocery stores, have dismally low scores, because they have to take a 25 minute detour to walk there.


Saint John's zoning maps have this parcel of land zoned as residential, but SNB has the corner property on Molson avenue as in no mans land. The DOT and Province of course own the land immediately beside NB-1 on both sides. This seems like a job for the province. Repurpose the Gantry on another Highway that needs it, and incorporate the Highway signs onto the Pedestrian crossing.

With Aquarius Tower and a second new apartment block going up, there's even more need for a pedestrian overpass there. An overpass at Molson Avenue would reduce the walk to McLaren's beach for people at both these new apartment blocks by almost 15 minutes compared to the current route via Bleury.

What would be really good is to see a 10-15+ storey apartment block go up on that sizeable vacant piece of land between Canadian Tire and the ANBL. A lot of units in such an apartment tower would have terrific views of the Bay of Fundy, and people who lived there would almost never have to drive to go shopping.


Views from 15 storeys up at Fairville Plaza

If they did the same approach over at Lancaster Mall and built something even bigger there, like 20 storeys, all those people living right at the shopping might actually breathe some life into Lancaster mall again, and give it a new purpose. The remains of that mall are just sad. If it had a good foodcourt, and even like 1 store that could be a draw, like a Uniqlo, or H&M it would be enough to make relevant region wide shopping, and a desirable place to live as a young person. If the mall portion could basically be levelled, but keep everything else, it would be a great location to build a 20+ storey mixed use tower with Shopping and food courts on the first two levels and housing on all the rest of the way up.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

I just did the PlanSJ survey last night, and if we want to take that 85,000+ goal seriously, I think we gotta start thinking bigger, and also start looking at areas like the West Side that haven't been at the forefront of residential development for decades, come up with a better strategy to grow the population in areas like the West Side, the North End, the South end. The focus has been east and Millidgeville for decades, I think it's time to shift that focus a bit on other neighbourhood with lots of potential. It was also disappointing to see how vague the questions were regarding housing issues like zoning, height restrictions, and regulatory processes. Building apartment buildings on top of existing shopping centres connected to the transit system and with ample parking just makes a lot of sense, but not according to the zoning map or the city's current strategy. We have place all over the city that fit this description, where housing is not allowed to be built without zoning variances.

Building tall enough in areas to take advantage of coastal views also makes a lot of sense, and this applies in most areas of the city, but especially places like the West Side and South End. It's good to see these two six storey apartment blocks get put up near the Fairville Shopping as they could be the start of something bigger. The next step should be to put up legitimate apartment towers at Fairville Plaza and Lancaster Mall. Two locations with ample parking, and already linked up with the transit system. People living at either location would have to rarely drive outside of going to work or running the odd errand Uptown... just takes some zoning variances and finding the right investor to make it possible. Are our city, regional, and provincial leaders even trying to attract investors from outside the province come and build nice tall condo and apartment towers?

The provincial government sure isn't by keeping the PST on new builds, the city sure isn't by having a lot of zoning restriction and height limits, and I'm not sure what other players like our regional development agency and other relevant actors are doing to try and attract investment in bigger apartment developments here in Saint John. It's not about having a contest with Moncton, it's about building as much housing as possible, and building apartment towers should be at least one of the crucial parts of any 21st century housing strategy.

When was the last time we've had an apartment tower 10 storeys or above go up? I don't think we even have a single 20 storey building, even though our city and region has all kinds of problems with urban sprawl. At the same time we have some of the nicest views to unlock by building high rises of any city in Canada. We've even got better bedrock geology to build tall buildings than Moncton, yet they're the city building them all right now.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I just did the PlanSJ survey last night, and if we want to take that 85,000+ goal seriously, I think we gotta start thinking bigger, and also start looking at areas like the West Side that haven't been at the forefront of residential development for decades, come up with a better strategy to grow the population in areas like the West Side, the North End, the South end. The focus has been east and Millidgeville for decades, I think it's time to shift that focus a bit on other neighbourhood with lots of potential. It was also disappointing to see how vague the questions were regarding housing issues like zoning, height restrictions, and regulatory processes. Building apartment buildings on top of existing shopping centres connected to the transit system and with ample parking just makes a lot of sense, but not according to the zoning map or the city's current strategy. We have place all over the city that fit this description, where housing is not allowed to be built without zoning variances.

Building tall enough in areas to take advantage of coastal views also makes a lot of sense, and this applies in most areas of the city, but especially places like the West Side and South End. It's good to see these two six storey apartment blocks get put up near the Fairville Shopping as they could be the start of something bigger. The next step should be to put up legitimate apartment towers at Fairville Plaza and Lancaster Mall. Two locations with ample parking, and already linked up with the transit system. People living at either location would have to rarely drive outside of going to work or running the odd errand Uptown... just takes some zoning variances and finding the right investor to make it possible. Are our city, regional, and provincial leaders even trying to attract investors from outside the province come and build nice tall condo and apartment towers?

The provincial government sure isn't by keeping the PST on new builds, the city sure isn't by having a lot of zoning restriction and height limits, and I'm not sure what other players like our regional development agency and other relevant actors are doing to try and attract investment in bigger apartment developments here in Saint John. It's not about having a contest with Moncton, it's about building as much housing as possible, and building apartment towers should be at least one of the crucial parts of any 21st century housing strategy.

When was the last time we've had an apartment tower 10 storeys or above go up? I don't think we even have a single 20 storey building, even though our city and region has all kinds of problems with urban sprawl. At the same time we have some of the nicest views to unlock by building high rises of any city in Canada. We've even got better bedrock geology to build tall buildings than Moncton, yet they're the city building them all right now.

Bedrock or lack thereof is not a factor. Florida is basically a sand bar and look at the super talls they build there with piles/caissons.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Bedrock or lack thereof is not a factor. Florida is basically a sand bar and look at the super talls they build there with piles/caissons.

Those factor into the costs though.

What would you say is the biggest factor for high rise developments not getting in SJ? If a city of similar size is comparatively building and approving them left and right compared to Saint John, Moncton must be doing somethings differently and more effectively than Saint John.

Surely there must be some differences in how Moncton deals with planning and zoning compared to Saint John. Our strategies and results seem qualitatively different in recent years especially.

When is the last time Saint John even built a 10 storey residential building?

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Those factor into the costs though.

What would you say is the biggest factor for high rise developments not getting in SJ? If a city of similar size is comparatively building and approving them left and right compared to Saint John, Moncton must be doing somethings differently and more effectively than Saint John.

Surely there must be some differences in how Moncton deals with planning and zoning compared to Saint John. Our strategies and results seem qualitatively different in recent years especially.

When is the last time Saint John even built a 10 storey residential building?

Lots of approvals in Moncton because there is a huge demand for housing being the fastest growing area in Canada and a smaller geographical footprint. I wouldn’t get caught up comparing the two cities - they are becoming less similar. Moncton is nipping at the heals of St. John’s, NL to become the second largest city in Atlantic Canada if you include Shediac/Beaubassin East (which for some reason is not part of their CMA). Saint John has its own strengths, having no city peer in the province when it comes to location/topography. We have tons of land for 4 to 5 story buildings and uptown as demand increases I imagine you’ll eventually see a 25+ story building.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Lots of approvals in Moncton because there is a huge demand for housing being the fastest growing area in Canada and a smaller geographical footprint. I wouldn’t get caught up comparing the two cities - they are becoming less similar. Moncton is nipping at the heals of St. John’s, NL to become the second largest city in Atlantic Canada if you include Shediac/Beaubassin East (which for some reason is not part of their CMA). Saint John has its own strengths, having no city peer in the province when it comes to location/topography. We have tons of land for 4 to 5 story buildings and uptown as demand increases I imagine you’ll eventually see a 25+ story building.

There's a huge demand for housing Canada-wide in every city, including Saint John. Saint John, Moncton, and St. John's are three cities of comparable demographics and economic importance. Moncton's growth is definitely significantly stronger than Saint John's, but they are still absolutely comparable cities and CMA's. Also, from what I hear, St. John's is maybe even more NIMBYistic than Saint John is when it comes to approving high rises, though maybe that's changed recently?

If we let too many 4 and 5 storey projects go up within the Uptown core, we could risk running out of prime real estate for the 10, 15, 25+ storey buildings within the city center. I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time is all... keep on building the cheap and easy 4-6 storey builds, while formulating a strategy to emulate the recent success Moncton has had with high rises. Saint John's larger geographic footprint is expensive, and there's no single better way to densify, than to build high rises.

Stephenson Tower was the last 10+ storey residential building built in Saint John, and Brentwood Tower was the last 15+ storey residential building, built in 1973.

Compared with Moncton, Saint John has been in development statis since the 1980's when it comes to high rises, and in the middle of a housing crisis, it just doesn't seem acceptable.

There's all kinds of room Uptown, the South End, and North End, which are are all indisputably part of the core or just outside the core of the city. I just hope we have a plan to keep enough prime real estate available within the most central areas of the city for sizeable residential towers to be built, as they are one of the most effective way to densify the city.

I think out city and provincial leaders need to do more to prioritize big solutions to the housing crisis. Stephenson Tower is 100 units in a 11 storey building owned by NB Housing. The province should be building more developments like that, and the city should be lobbying for them to do so. Obviously though, the private sector is the main player in property development... and in terms of attracting private investors to come build high rise developments in beautiful Saint John, the 5th largest coastal city in Canada... I think our local leaders are not doing the best job they could be to attract the outside investment to our city and region. Fundy Quay is our biggest project on the horizon, and that is a project spearheaded by a group based out of Rothesay, NB who have no experience building high rises, and that project is moving at a snail's pace compared to similar developments in Moncton.

If we did a better job trying to attract investors from outside the region, and outside the province for that matter, I think we could get some bigger scale projects into the development pipeline and start seeing big changes a lot quicker than the current strategy of hoping we eventually see developers interested in building high rises he in the Saint John Region. That might not be an entirely fair description of the current strategy to attract property developers to build bigger projects in the Saint John region, but I think it's safe to say our current approach has some room for improvement.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Piggybacking on the area around Molson Avenue where there's a great opportunity to build a pedestrian overpass and improve walkability for the surrounding neighbourhood by linking them to the shopping at Fairville Plaza... I think there's also a great opportunity to build some residential developments within Fairville Plaza's current footprint, as well as at Lancaster Mall.




The footprint of the Fort Howe Apartments (superimposed in yellow), including parking fits pretty neatly within the this unused strip of land between ANBL and Canadian Tire. Fort Howe is 9 storeys with 153 units. A 15 storey apartment with a similar footprint to the Fort Howe Apartments, built on this strip of unused land at Fairville Plaza, could provide 255 hyper-walkable housing units (some with ocean views) located on directly beside shopping. There's all kinds of room in that parking lot already, but underground parking could also make sense. The province could fund such a development in a major way, or even get directly involved to ensure a majority of the units would be considered affordable.

As For Lancaster Mall, without even getting into partially demolishing the mall portion (which could be justified to build something better), there's room for a 18+ storey residential tower to be built behind the mall, as is, based on the footprint of the proposed 18 storey St. Bernard Place development in Moncton. (superimposed in yellow) which could be another 175-200+ units of hyper-walkable housing units with ocean views, located basically directly on top of shopping, and already linked up with SJ Transit. There's lots of room in the Lancaster Mall Parking lot as is, but some underground parking might still be needed to accommodate such a development.

It would be a great long term investment for a private developer, and something the owner of Lancaster Mall could make a lot of profit from... not just from the rent on possibly 200 or more housing units, but the from the increase in foot traffic to their mall from all the new people living there. For either location, the city would have to be willing to approve some rezoning to make such developments possible, but doing so would be in their best interests... as it could be housing for around 1000 people or more. And of course, there's many other retail nodes around Saint John where some mid rise and high rise housing developments could be incorporated.

We shouldn't want to see more high rises get built just to "catch up" with Moncton, we should want to see them built, because rental prices are ridiculous in Saint John due to current supply and demand factors, and building high rise apartments are one of the best ways to rapidly increase the supply of rental housing, while also increasing density. Again, high rises should just be part of the solution, we aren't New York or Toronto, but the figures don't lie high rise developments haven't been part of Saint John's housing strategy since the 1970's and 1980s, considering that not a single 10+ storey residential development has gone up in at the last 40 years or so. We've seen too much urban sprawl since then, and not enough focus on height and density.

Hopefully we see some real change on this front in the near future, especially if immigration levels stay high, which is likely, regardless of who wins the next provincial or federal election. We need bigger solutions to the housing crisis here in Saint John, and high rises are about as big as solutions get.

[cdnguys]

Again I wouldn’t be so focused on Moncton or other cities. Hands down we have the most beautiful spaces in NB (arguably east of Quebec City) and 25 or 30 story + buildings in other cities is not going to change that. They will never have this:

[IMG] remove duplicate text[/IMG]

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Again I wouldn’t be so focused on Moncton or other cities. Hands down we have the most beautiful spaces in NB (arguably east of Quebec City) and 25 or 30 story + buildings in other cities is not going to change that. They will never have this:

You're right they never will, and I agree we have some of the more beautiful spaces and scenic views in all of Eastern Canada... so imagine how much better those views could be from some taller buildings in the Uptown Core, South End, West Side, etc.

Moncton's building 20 and 30 storey buildings, which will have some views of their river and surrounding urban landscape, but even if they built tall enough to see the ocean (40-50 storeys up) it would still be a very distant view, unlike what we have the potential for here in Saint John with even a 10 storey. We are virtually surrounded by the Bay of Fundy and St. John/Kennebecasis river valley... yet, relatively few buildings actually have ocean views or views of the river system/valley.

We could be building mid rises and high rises with some of the best ocean views in the entire country.

I understand we have a lot of well intentioned heritage restrictions Uptown, and I'm not suggesting we build a bunch of skyscrapers along the harbour-front to ruin people's current views. Yet, I can't help but feel that the heritage restrictions are just a little too much...

There's definitely a way to strategically build mid rises and high rises around the central peninsula to enhance the skyline, and capitalize on the resulting coastal views, without ruining the historic character of the city. Going this long without building even a single 10+ storey residential building is just sad.

I'm only focussed on Moncton and other cities as far as using them as examples to show what's possible for Saint John if we were to follow their lead and build taller buildings. If we build taller buildings our city will have a more impressive skyline, and far more people will have impressive views of the ocean and surrounding cityscape... a win-win.

[darkharbour]

I would a thousand percent prefer every empty lot filled with a 4-6 storey building in our urban core than having a handful of new 10-20 storey builds. The feeling of density and vibrancy would be much better, as well as having a better public realm.

[sailor734]

Here's a question. Assuming lots of available space, is it cheaper to build 4 4 story buildings containing the same total square footage as one 16 story tower?....are there other reasons other than cost.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I would a thousand percent prefer every empty lot filled with a 4-6 storey building in our urban core than having a handful of new 10-20 storey builds. The feeling of density and vibrancy would be much better, as well as having a better public realm.

Surely there’s a healthy medium between these two absolutes? As it’s certainly not binary.

10 storey buildings are going to have way better views than 4 storeys. Prince Edward Square is the lone 10 storey or above residential building Uptown, and it was built in 1973.

There remains lots of room for both types of developments in our urban core, but that won’t be the case if we build too many 4-6 storey builds. Taller buildings can be vibrant too.

I think the feeling of waking up to a view of the Bay of Fundy is something people are discounting in this discussion… a 20 storey building Uptown is going to be chalk full of units with ocean views— but five 4 storey buildings? Not so much.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Here's a question. Assuming lots of available space, is it cheaper to build 4 4 story buildings containing the same total square footage as one 16 story tower?....are there other reasons other than cost.

There’s the cost of land and cost of hooking each building up to the utility system, those costs are almost always going to be cheaper for one 16 storey mid rise than four 4 storey buildings.


The construction costs are of course entirely variable, depending on the two types of construction being compared. It we’re talking about building affordable housing as efficiently as possible, height under a certain threshold is usually going to win out, especially taking into consideration the cost of land.


As for reasons other than cost, living in a 16 storey building with an elevator and a view of the ocean would be far preferable than living in a building with no elevator and no view of the ocean.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Prince Edward Square is the lone 10 storey or above residential building Uptown, and it was built in 1973.

Forgot one...


Apple Maps

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Forgot one…

Ahh, right. I saw it on the list and wrongly assumed it wasn’t residential. So not a single 10+ storey building built Uptown in 40 years then, which still seems like far too long.

[michael_d40]

And another one;

https://maps.app.goo.gl/bVhLzXHsnr7vi7L96?g_st=ic

[sailor734]

Interesting take on residential development costs in the US. I wonder how the Canadian numbers would compare?

https://willowdaleequity.com/blog/cost-to-build-an-apartment-complex/

I'd love to see some soaring 20-30 floor luxury glass towers overlooking the harbour but the question is who is going to rent the units at 2.5-4K a month or buy the condos at 700K-1.5M?

I'm guessing developers are building what will rent and that appears to be mostly 4-6 floor stick built structures with a decent but relatively moderate level of fit, finish and features.

Horse for courses and all that.