Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

It's really just a vestibule about the same size as at street level, but could probably be connected in any direction

Thanks for that.

I do think that an additional set of elevators from street level to the concourse would be beneficial. It is the only downtown station with only one set, and the busiest station at that.

[AuxTown]

OK, I have been trying to be positive and give them the benefit of the doubt but it's starting to seem like our trains are pieces of shit! How the hell does this keep happening?!?

Broken-down train causing delays on Confederation Line

Passengers will need to take replacement buses between Lyon and Rideau stations
CBC News · Posted: Nov 08, 2019 7:44 AM ET | Last Updated: 6 minutes ago

OC Transpo says the Confederation Line is currently experiencing delays because of a broken train between Rideau and Parliament stations.

The update was sent just after 7:30 a.m.

Replacement buses are being sent to take passengers between Lyon and Rideau stations.

There is currently no information about how long the disruption is expected to last.

This is the eighth time this month an O-Train line has had an issue during morning peak service.

[daud]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

OK, I have been trying to be positive and give them the benefit of the doubt but it's starting to seem like our trains are pieces of shit! How the hell does this keep happening?!?

There are serious issues with the trains themselves and the systems that manage them. I keep hearing Train Control & Management System (TCMS) as one source of the issues; also switches and doors.

We got a lemon. It may get fixed, but for now, they need buses. People are literally livid and they will start losing transit riders.

This was an interesting interview from CBC's Robyn Bresnahan with Pat Scrimgeour of OC Transpo from yesterday. She asks tough questions, both tough on OC and tough to answer. Some are fair, some are not. Pat struggles through the interview-its a bit painful. I feel for OC Transpo, they are operators and the issues are with the product from what I can gather and that is somewhat out of their control. But they were responsible for the RFP and the acceptance and they do need to answer to that.

https://twitter.com/OttawaMorning/status/1192456400720535555

[J.OT13]

Some of the blame regarding Lie 1 issues lie with OC Transpo. They accepted the delivery before it was fully ready. They accepted the Line with 13 trains when 15 was promised.

The blame for the bus issues, obviously, is 100% on OC Transpo. And for me at least, the bus issues are a much bigger problem.

With a new rail system, you can expect a few issues. Other than Vancouver, we see issues with every other system, even when it's only new rolling stock. But for 5 years, OC Transpo continually promised, with great certainty, that the buses would become much more reliable once they no longer need to travel downtown. That has not materialized. If anything, the bus system is worse than ever.

I think it's pretty rich of OC and the City to withhold money from RTG/RTM because we haven't received what we pay for, but refuse to consider a fare reduction or fare freeze because "in order to provide better service, we need more revenue, not less". Why hold money from the rail operators for a shitty rail service, but not "hold" money from a bus operator for a crappy bus service?

[daud]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Some of the blame regarding Lie 1 issues lie with OC Transpo. They accepted the delivery before it was fully ready. They accepted the Line with 13 trains when 15 was promised.

The blame for the bus issues, obviously, is 100% on OC Transpo. And for me at least, the bus issues are a much bigger problem.

With a new rail system, you can expect a few issues. Other than Vancouver, we see issues with every other system, even when it's only new rolling stock. But for 5 years, OC Transpo continually promised, with great certainty, that the buses would become much more reliable once they no longer need to travel downtown. That has not materialized. If anything, the bus system is worse than ever.

I think it's pretty rich of OC and the City to withhold money from RTG/RTM because we haven't received what we pay for, but refuse to consider a fare reduction or fare freeze because "in order to provide better service, we need more revenue, not less". Why hold money from the rail operators for a shitty rail service, but not "hold" money from a bus operator for a crappy bus service?

good points...

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by daud

There are serious issues with the trains themselves and the systems that manage them. I keep hearing Train Control & Management System (TCMS) as one source of the issues; also switches and doors.

We got a lemon. It may get fixed, but for now, they need buses. People are literally livid and they will start losing transit riders.

This was an interesting interview from CBC's Robyn Bresnahan with Pat Scrimgeour of OC Transpo from yesterday. She asks tough questions, both tough on OC and tough to answer. Some are fair, some are not. Pat struggles through the interview-its a bit painful. I feel for OC Transpo, they are operators and the issues are with the product from what I can gather and that is somewhat out of their control. But they were responsible for the RFP and the acceptance and they do need to answer to that.

https://twitter.com/OttawaMorning/status/1192456400720535555

Holy shit that was a rough interview. The fact that Manconi is hiding from accountability by cancelling his appearance in that interview at the last minute is just galling. He deliberately sent that smarmy SOB so that he could deflect any pointed criticism and avoid public accountability. "I can't speak to that". "I don't really know much about the contract". Well then why the hell are you even talking to us if you can't speak to anything of relevance?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Some of the blame regarding Lie 1 issues lie with OC Transpo. They accepted the delivery before it was fully ready. They accepted the Line with 13 trains when 15 was promised.

The blame for the bus issues, obviously, is 100% on OC Transpo. And for me at least, the bus issues are a much bigger problem.

With a new rail system, you can expect a few issues. Other than Vancouver, we see issues with every other system, even when it's only new rolling stock. But for 5 years, OC Transpo continually promised, with great certainty, that the buses would become much more reliable once they no longer need to travel downtown. That has not materialized. If anything, the bus system is worse than ever.

I think it's pretty rich of OC and the City to withhold money from RTG/RTM because we haven't received what we pay for, but refuse to consider a fare reduction or fare freeze because "in order to provide better service, we need more revenue, not less". Why hold money from the rail operators for a shitty rail service, but not "hold" money from a bus operator for a crappy bus service?

The analogy doesn't really work. The whole house of cards is coming down with the Ford cuts and we are in real trouble. We will have to raise taxes substantially because transit fares are probably already nearing their maximum. Maybe the disaster was predicted as they know we needed Phase 2 to actually make the system work. Otherwise it seems like we rushed into it and should have asked for more money from other layers of government.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The analogy doesn't really work. The whole house of cards is coming down with the Ford cuts and we are in real trouble. We will have to raise taxes substantially because transit fares are probably already nearing their maximum. Maybe the disaster was predicted as they know we needed Phase 2 to actually make the system work. Otherwise it seems like we rushed into it and should have asked for more money from other layers of government.

If the issue is the Ford Government cuts (and I have no doubt it's a major factor), then scream it from the top of the Peace Tower. Add a line to the tax bill or a pamphlet attributing the rising fees to the Ford Government.

EDIT: I know it's not that simple. We have to try and maintain a cordial relationship with he Province, even with these cuts. We're looking for funding for the Civic, Stage 3 and other big projects. Don't poke the bear. But Ford is doing something very similar with the carbon tax stickers at gas stations to try and bring down the Federal Liberals. Very miss-leading stickers that don't say 90% will return to all Ontarians as part of a tax refund. Even after the Liberal win, Ford still won't back down.

The analogy still stands though. You can't withhold payments from an under preforming partner on one hand, and ask for more money from customers to fix your own under preforming system on the other. That's mixed messaging.

I don't necessarily expect them to freeze or cut fares, though I would like an explanation as to why we have the second highers fares in Canada. I would settle for OC Transpo taking responsibility for the failed bus network and not just divert blame solely to RTG/RTM. That and fixing the issues, not just in the suburbs (which aren't bad in my experience in Orleans) but in the entire city.

[CityTech]

I honestly think the city should just raise its revenue take from the tax base from 3% to 5% for this year. Property tax per capita relative to inflation fell 6% during Watson's first two terms. 3% is roughly neutral on that front (inflation being 2% and pop growth being 1%). So 5% now would really just be cancelling out part of that cut.

That extra 2%, worth roughly $35M, should be used to fund:
-$20M in service improvements, with an outside expert like Walker or Cassello in charge of figuring out the best way to spend it
-$5M annual contribution to a new reserve fund to accelerate purchases of electric buses--whenever OC needs to buy buses, they'd used this fund to pay for the cost difference between electric and diesel. This way the operating cost savings from electric buses can go to the operating budget instead of having to be used on pay back the extra purchase price. This will reduce the cost of running the bus system over time.
-$10M to freeze fares for 2 years.

Watson has so much political capital and his biggest opponents all want more spending. He can do this.

[lrt's friend]

There was a similar uncomfortable interview with John Manconi last night on CTV News as the one on CBC Radio yesterday morning. The reporter actually asked if political pressure was applied to open the C-Line before it was ready. As one can imagine (one cannot throw your boss under the bus publicly), he deflected on the answer saying that the 12 day test proved that the trains were 'safe' to operate and that the test did not reveal the problems experienced since October 6th. I am not sure if that entirely true given that there were resets during the test and we could not operate 15 trains.

Also, from presentation released yesterday, it was revealed that we are paying RTM $4M to $5M per month to maintain the trains. That amounts to $50M to $60M per year. This is more than the expected savings from eliminating bus service out of downtown, which amounted to $40M to $50M also reported in the last few days. This has to be concern for the sustainability of public transit, when it appears that there are actually no savings to be had from the switch-over from buses to trains. The only savings can be achieved by cutting remaining bus service and we all now know that this occurred. For example, we now know that the 'frequent' bus network is actually a net reduction compared to previously and the implementation of the 'frequent' versus 'fast' routes was actually concealing that 'fast' routes were sometimes no longer frequent. It also explains the desperation of ending some downtown routes (example Route 10) forcing transfers for one or two stations on the C-Line. They were trying every way possible to save money on the remaining bus system. My own neighbourhood route was originally planned to run to Hurdman during all hours and then was cut to peak periods only.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There was a similar uncomfortable interview with John Manconi last night on CTV News as the one on CBC Radio yesterday morning. The reporter actually asked if political pressure was applied to open the C-Line before it was ready. As one can imagine (one cannot throw your boss under the bus publicly), he deflected on the answer saying that the 12 day test proved that the trains were 'safe' to operate and that the test did not reveal the problems experienced since October 6th. I am not sure if that entirely true given that there were resets during the test and we could not operate 15 trains.

Also, from presentation released yesterday, it was revealed that we are paying RTM $4M to $5M per month to maintain the trains. That amounts to $50M to $60M per year. This is more than the expected savings from eliminating bus service out of downtown, which amounted to $40M to $50M also reported in the last few days.

If Manconi were given free will, I think he could do a decent job. I feel like Kanellakos, Watson and Hubley are pressuring him to tow the line. I think the powers at the top stopped him from doing the CBC Ottawa Morning interview and forced Scrimgeour onto the battle field. Scrimgeour had no idea why Manconi backed-out. He was just told, by who knows who, to get his ass to CBC that morning. The City seems to have a problem with CBC as they do more investigative reporting, while CTV is more reactive.

As for the train maintenance numbers, we still haven't gotten any answers as to why the trains are kept coupled (labour? technical issues? a few different stories came up on the forum) and who (RTG or the City) made the decision. And more importantly, who pays for the extra power and maintenance? That must be a pretty big chunk of the maintenance costs.

Another interesting revelation Wednesday: the smell at Parliament Station is due to a punctured sewer line dating back to construction, so maybe 5 years ago? One of those rods, similar to the one that punctured SunLife's parking garage, I guess. So why did they maintain that condensation under the escalators was the cause? Why did they clean (or claim to clean) those escalator pits? How the hell did they not know, or why did they not tell us, about the pierced sewer line? If they knew about it, why wasn't it fixed at the time?

[rocketphish]

Woe-train: Ottawa's LRT troubles, by the numbers
Confederation Line service disruptions add up to 21.5 hours of headaches for commuters

Andrew Foote · CBC News
Posted: Nov 06, 2019 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: November 6

In the seven and a half weeks since Ottawa's Confederation Line opened to the public, there's been nearly a full day's worth of service disruptions — that we know about.

The new light rail line has broken down 31 times in the last 53 days for a total of 21.5 hours out of service, according to OC Transpo alerts.

Add the Trillium Line to the mix, and there have been more than 24 hours and 15 minutes of disruptions since Oct. 6 alone.

Trains on Lines 1 and 2 were halted on 20 of the 31 days since parallel bus service ended and dozens of routes were retired, forcing commuters to transfer onto LRT to complete their rides downtown.

Frustration among riders has boiled over, prompting Mayor Jim Watson to promise $3.5 million to bring back buses that had been put out of service. OC Transpo managers will have more to say at a transit commission meeting today.

Here's a look at Ottawa's troubled transit system, by the numbers.


How often does the LRT break down?




Longest disruptions since Sept. 14




Most frequent trouble spots




Known causes of O-Train issues




Facts and figures are from OC Transpo, plus city sources whenever possible.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-otrain-problem-issue-graph-numbers-1.5348331

[J.OT13]

Hum... Listening to Wednesday's Transit Commission. Sound like Kanallakis, and by extension the City, IS blaming RTG/RTM for the shitty bus service. Well that's a slap in the face.

EDIT: Around 19:20 of the second part of the meeting, Manconi concedes that RTG cannot be blamed for all the issues as the bus problems are on OC. He must have received a stern talking to for that one.

[MalcolmTucker]

As for the train maintenance numbers, we still haven't gotten any answers as to why the trains are kept coupled (labour? technical issues? a few different stories came up on the forum) and who (RTG or the City) made the decision. And more importantly, who pays for the extra power and maintenance? That must be a pretty big chunk of the maintenance costs.

In Calgary they found there were no net savings from running shorter trains, because then you need people to decouple and recouple trains.



Who pays? Payments:

The City will make monthly service payments to Project Co for the provision of facilities and services as contracted. The payments are subject to various adjustments including dollar deductions for underperformance in accordance with the payment mechanism schedule (Schedule20), adjustments based on annual drivers hours in accordance with the operations matters schedule (Schedule39),gainshare or painshare adjustments based on energy utilities consumption under the energy matters schedule (Schedule 8) and to upwards adjustments as a consequence of compensation events.

So without the schedules, we don't know the full suite of interlocking incentives. The extra maintenance on vehicles would be born 100% by the Project Co, same with the coupling and decoupling costs as that would be maintenance/operations. Energy matters would be shared.



Really old numbers from Calgary that might be useful to let us know what the split between different spending components might be:

Vehicle Maintenance costs: $13.9M (2006)
Station Maintenance costs: $2.8M (2006)
Right of Way Maintenance costs: $2.9M (2006)
Signals Maintenance costs: $2.4M (2006)
Average annual power costs: $4.8M (2006)
Annual LRV Operator wages: $6.0M (2006)
https://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140075&page=105

And the city only pays part of the marginal electricity cost. But as it is a P3, if you believe in efficient markets, the price the project co bid in included optimizing the cost with the built in, so the costs are already allocated, and the only electricity exposure for the city is the wholesale supply price change, unless the Project Co finds a way to replace a lot of other money they would have spent with extra electricity in an unexpected way.

[J.OT13]

It was my understanding that the City pays RTG per kilometer traveled, so if we run doubles on weekends when singles would suffice, we are paying double what we need during that time. In any case, even if we are not charged for running doubles vs singles, train cars will wear out faster which could be an issue once they are transferred to us in 30 years.

We can't compare ourselves to Calgary because we have different rolling-stock. We run coupled 48 meter trains while Calgary runs five 25 meter cars with the front and back cars having cabs and the middle cars being simple passenger cars. So when they reduce the number of cars, they need to 1. remove one of the cab cars and 2. move it out of the way, 3. remove a passenger car and 4. move it out of the way and 5. re-attach the cab car making the coupling/decoupling much more complicated. And by just keeping the train together, it's only an extra 25 meters passenger car. When we couple-decouple, it's just one step and we leave behind a 48 meter train with all it's sophisticated equipment. Much less wear and tear in running a full length C-Train vehicle than a full length O-Train vehicle.

Furthermore, I do believe the process in Ottawa was supposed to be automated. It just doesn't work, but can be done manually if need be, which is the case. Calgary is fully manual.

The City should not concern themselves with the cost of coupling/uncoupling. It was in the contract and it is up to RTG/RTM to pay their employees to do that if need be. Just like the 12 days of testing with 15 trains promised from the very beginning, the weekend decoupling written in the contract should be enforced.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Every car in Calgary has 2 cabs. You just dump one or two of the cars, you don't need to rejig the trains (over time you need to to spread the miles over the fleet, so over time you would). 15, 20 years ago it was pretty common to only have 2 car trains running on weekends.

And yeah, Calgary has manual yards.

The contract overview doesn't have any payment changes based on 1 car versus 2 cars. It is entirely possible on the weekend or other low demand periods that RTG/RTM is only paid to operate one car, but RTG/RTM has decided that even then it is not worth it to split the trains. Having a provision in the contract where RTG/RTM can just decide to make more money is not something that would ever be put in a contract.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

^ Every car in Calgary has 2 cabs. You just dump one or two of the cars, you don't need to rejig the trains (over time you need to to spread the miles over the fleet, so over time you would). 15, 20 years ago it was pretty common to only have 2 car trains running on weekends.

And yeah, Calgary has manual yards.

The contract overview doesn't have any payment changes based on 1 car versus 2 cars. It is entirely possible on the weekend or other low demand periods that RTG/RTM is only paid to operate one car, but RTG/RTM has decided that even then it is not worth it to split the trains. Having a provision in the contract where RTG/RTM can just decide to make more money is not something that would ever be put in a contract.

So a 5 car C-Train has 10 cabs?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So a 5 car C-Train has 10 cabs?

Yeah, when a tunnel is eventually built which allows for 5 car trains, there will be 10 cabs. Just like Toronto's older T-1 trains, each car has 2 cabs.

If capacity constraints every justify it, I'm sure they'll commission a 125m consit for the line that can support 125m trains, and a 100m consit for the line that can support 100m trains, and new yards and maintenance facilities to handle them. It is unlikely though, as in that distant future, there will be two lines able to accommodate 25,000 ppdph, and one able to accommodate 12,000 ppdph, for a total peak cordone count into or out of the CBD of 124,000 people per hour, double Toronto's current capacity.

A mitigating solution from the original generation (U2s) to the more modern ones, was pushing the cabs out over the couplers, reclaiming space for passengers.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The City should not concern themselves with the cost of coupling/uncoupling. It was in the contract and it is up to RTG/RTM to pay their employees to do that if need be. Just like the 12 days of testing with 15 trains promised from the very beginning, the weekend decoupling written in the contract should be enforced.

So we can enjoy the same crush loaded trains on weekend as rush hour but with the added benefit that the singles usually stop at the unsheltered part of the platform? Thanks but not thanks.

[rocketphish]

LRT gremlins don't take weekends off, 'immobilized' train causes morning delays

Norman Provencher, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: November 9, 2019

Glitches don’t stop on the brand-new LRT just because it’s the weekend.

OC Transpo reported just before 6 a.m. that riders could expect “minor delays” because due to an unspecified problem with the morning launch.

Fifteen minutes later, the service helpfully that a “technical issue” was causing the delay.

At 6:25 a.m., the service posted that all trains in both directions would service the westbound platforms from Parliament to Rideau stations due to an “immobilized train” at Parliament.

As the morning wore on, Transpo warned riders they could experience delays of up to 10 minutes.

Service were resumed in both directions, with delays, by 8:38 a.m. The all-clear, with no delays came at 9:39 a.m.

In the midst of these problems, riders at the Hurdman station when the fire alarms went off at 7:21 a.m.

Train service, such as it was, was maintained and the all clear was given at 7:53 a.m.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-immobilized-train-causes-morning-delays