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  #13361  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 1:04 AM
Charles5 Charles5 is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Well, what would the term be? The fact that we have not had enough trains built makes the under built term more reasonable.
I realize that no matter what anyone says that you will stubbornly stick to your position, however, for the record:

The City purchased 15 trains sets and 4 spare cars. It started operating with 13 train sets because they felt that that would meet the demand. They have subsequently decided to add the 14th. They can add the 15th as well should they so choose so.

If the passenger demand goes up so much that 15 trains are unable to meet the demand, then there are Stage 2 trains that could be added to the network as well.

When there is a disruption in the system, the frequency is reduced for reasons other than a shortage of trains. Having additional trains during a disruption will not help improve anything as they can only get through a bottleneck so quickly; other than perhaps clearing up the resulting backlog a little quicker after the disruption is ended. The City has chosen not to run those extra trains (and I would agree with them, it's not worth the cost to run the system way above the required capacity needed 'just in case').

You may not agree with the way the City operates the network, but that doesn't suggest in the least that the network is 'underbuilt'.

If you're looking for a term, perhaps you might consider 'unreliable' at this point in time.
     
     
  #13362  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 1:44 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Ottawa's initial purchase was 17 trains, not 19. Two additional trains were purchased afterwards but they are not fully assembled.

The language we use is irrelevant. We have been operating with the bare minimum number of trains.
     
     
  #13363  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 2:12 AM
Charles5 Charles5 is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Ottawa's initial purchase was 17 trains, not 19. Two additional trains were purchased afterwards but they are not fully assembled.

The language we use is irrelevant. We have been operating with the bare minimum number of trains.
I don't see anywhere where I or anyone else said we purchased 19 trains. I said 15 train sets (each comprising 2 cars) and 4 spare cars. That's a total of 34 cars. Those are the Stage 1 vehicles. Yes, you could theoretically make 17 train sets in total, but you need to plan to have a few in maintenance and servicing at all times. The City purchased 34 cars to keep 15 trains on the tracks.

Stage 2 has an order of 38 additional cars. As of the last update I am aware of in Feb 19, four of those were in various stages of construction at the Belfast Yards (suggesting that perhaps 1 or 2 are complete by this time).
     
     
  #13364  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 2:14 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Though the wording on the two additional trainsets (35-28) has always been fairly vague, I'm pretty sure they were intended to be extra Stage 2 trainsets.

The original Stage 2 order was 34 vehicles, which was then upped to 38.
     
     
  #13365  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 2:53 AM
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rocketphish rocketphish is offline
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Elderly woman rescued from LRT tracks moments before train pulls into station

Andrew Duffy, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: November 6, 2019


An elderly woman who fell onto the LRT tracks at Rideau Station was rescued by two men — one an OC Transpo employee — just moments before a rush-hour train sped into the station.

Commuters watched, terrified, as the two rescuers worked to lift the stricken woman from the tracks even as the westbound train could be heard in the tunnel, approaching the station.

“They pulled her off the tracks maybe 10 seconds before the train pulled into the station,” said former Ottawa Citizen and Sun editor Michelle Richardson, one of those to witness the rescue. “It was absolutely terrifying.”

Troy Charter, OC Transpo’s director of transit operation, confirmed the 5:30 p.m. incident, but was unable to say if the woman tripped, fainted of suffered a seizure. “An individual fell on the tracks at Rideau Station,” he said. “The O-Train ambassador and other passengers assisted; the individual was pulled from the tracks.”

Richardson said she was on the westbound platform when she heard a commotion a few feet to her left: “This woman had tumbled onto the tracks: She was in the middle of the rails.”

She did not see how the woman fell. But the woman had tumbled through some yellow bollards at the edge of the platform, Richardson said, and landed face down on the tracks. As people yelled at the woman to get up, a man leaped onto the track, which is only a few feet below the platform.

“At that point, the red-vested OC Transpo official started yelling, ‘Get off the track, they’re electric! Get off the track, don’t touch anything!’” said Richardson. “But you could hear the train coming in the tunnel.”

Some commuters tried to find the emergency phones to halt the train; Richardson dialed 911 as she watched events unfold.

The OC Transpo worker, she said, jumped onto the tracks to assist the other rescuer. They managed to get the woman to her feet then lifted her onto the platform. The OC Transpo worker was the last to remove himself from the tracks.

“The westbound train didn’t stop: It pulled in seconds later,” said Richardson.

The woman seemed to recover somewhat on the platform, she said, and walked from the scene with assistance.

The LRT uses an overhead “catenary system” to power its trains through a device mounted on train cars rather than an electrified third rail common in subway systems. Ottawa’s trains use about 1500 volts.

It’s not clear why the OC Transpo official was concerned about the risk of electrocution. An OC Transpo spokesman said it would not be able to answer more questions about the incident until Thursday.

“The LRT worker reacted really swiftly, which was great,” Richardson said, “but he didn’t seem entirely prepared for what to do.”

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-moments-before-train-pulls-into-station
     
     
  #13366  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 2:59 AM
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More buses, more blame — an LRT update off-the-rails

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: November 6, 2019


The glorious light-rail revolution was sadly exposed as a piece of magical thinking on Wednesday. Now how to salvage the billion-dollar dream?

It is not a smooth, cutting-edge service — as thousands know first-hand; it is not taking loads of buses off the road; it is not saving millions in labour costs; and it has compounded — not fixed — long-standing problems with bus unreliability.

And the city, largely, has chosen to bus-throw the builder, blaming the RTM maintenance consortium for failing to attend to technical glitches that have let down riders since the Oct. 6 launch of the $2.1-billion system.

Piling one apology on another for the rocky start, senior staff indicated they’re hounding Rideau Transit Maintenance for better responses to broken doors, malfunctioning switches and computer systems that refuse to communicate with each other.

“They have failed the city and its residents,” city general manager Steve Kanellakos edgily told transit commissioners. “We have not received the service we paid for.”

RTM is paid about $4 million a month to maintain the 13-station system and the city says it hasn’t paid the consortium a nickel for September or October and is withholding about $64 million in other payments.

OC Transpo general manager John Manconi attempted to illustrate the urgency of the city’s reaction, saying he was days ago on the phone with an RTM executive at 5:30 a.m. to push to get a broken switch fixed. Both he and Kanellakos said they spent part of the weekend laying it on the line for RTM.

“We are not going to pay them,” said Kanellakos.

The transit commission was told, remarkably, that service isn’t actually that bad, with reliability of 96.7 per cent so far, putting it the middle of the pack for North American LRT systems.

It was hardly a persuasive defence for tens of thousands of riders who have put up with sporadic service for a month and dread the start of winter.

Nor were councillors won over. On behalf of constituents, they complained about a feeder bus service that is now worse, stations with slippery floors or long staircases exposed to weather, or platforms that are too small and overcrowded, about the lack of on-board straps or automated fare machines in the wrong place.

And the city’s main response? Small fixes and more buses.

Mayor Jim Watson announced last week that 40 more buses would be added to the fleet but there continued to be confusion about how they would be deployed and whether, in the words of Bay Ward Coun. Theresa Kavanagh, a “hunger games” mentality would sink in to see which wards would get relief.

There is nothing carefully calculated about the number 40, adding to the feeling of a patchwork response. It only represents the number of unused but still licensed buses that OC can throw at the system. And it will do so in an ad-hoc way, plugging holes on crowded routes, especially those departing from Tunney’s and Blair.

It won’t be until January — when a new “booking” period is open with the operators union — that longterm changes can be made to routes that are overcrowded, frequently late or just ill-designed.

Rather than taking hundreds of buses off the road, the city is dedicating $7.5 million to new buses in 2020 — the 40 old ones and 19 new ones.

Nor have the staff savings materialized. Rather than the 400 to 500 predicted layoffs, the ATU reports that not a single person has lost their job at OC, which is going on a recruitment drive.

This is the very curious part of this LRT launch. OC Transpo is learning to be a train company, but it has always been a bus provider. So how, commissioners asked over and over, could it design a series of bus routes that are so unreliable?

Of the 139 routes OC operates, 100 were affected by the arrival of the train on Oct. 6. So the changes have been massive, the biggest in the system’s history, and the handshake between bus and LRT station is still a wobbly one.

If the train is operating poorly, explained Manconi, it ripples right through the bus service. (When it all works, as it did one day this week, bus reliability rose to 99.5 per cent, he said.)

Still, there is strong suspicion about whether the city did its diligence. Several councillors wondered about the 12 days of continuous, full-service testing that was supposed to be the blue-ribbon test this summer.

Staff offered a number of answers that, honestly, made no sense. It wasn’t 12 continuous days and it appears that all 15 trains weren’t operating during morning and evening peaks. So, was it really a final exam?

Magical thinking? Here’s perhaps one last piece. The city is predicting a 2.6-per-cent ridership bump in 2020.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-726-5896 or email [email protected]
Twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/egan-more-buses-more-blame-an-lrt-update-off-the-rails
     
     
  #13367  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 3:56 AM
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stations with slippery floors or long staircases exposed to weather, or platforms that are too small and overcrowded, about the lack of on-board straps or automated fare machines in the wrong place.
I find this is one big downside to the opaque P3 process. The public wasn't really well informed of the final plans. Had there maybe been a bit of sincere consultation some of these could have been identified earlier. I have a feeling the same thing is happening with Stage 2, will we get to see more details beyond superficial renderings?
     
     
  #13368  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 4:18 AM
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Man the confed line just can't catch a break these days between old ladies taking a dive onto the tracks and the ongoing issues. I really feel for you guys.

Should've built an ALRT system..
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  #13369  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 7:03 AM
Prometheus188 Prometheus188 is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Well, what would the term be? The fact that we have not had enough trains built makes the under built term more reasonable.
That's not what under built means. Under built means the core infrastructure is lacking, and that nothing can be done to fix it short of fundamentally altering or destroying the project. For example, the Calgary LRT is under built. The at grade sections place a hard limit on future frequency and train size increases. They can't really do anything to increase capacity. The only thing left to do is demolish the LRT and replace it with a subway. That's what under built means.

Ottawa's LRT is not under built. The stations, trains, and line frequency are large enough to run for the next 50-100 years. We have capacity for generations to come. Most systems aren't future proofed to the extent Ottawa's LRT is.

Temporarily having fewer trains that the current ridership warrants doesn't make a project under built. If Ottawa's LRT was at max capacity right now, and there was absolutely nothing we could do to increase capacity for the future, such that the LRT had to be demolished and replaced with a subway, then could you claim it was under built. You can't claim things are under built, when they clearly are not. Just because you don't like the current service levels doesn't make it under built. That's not what the word means. The fact that ridership is currently 10,000 - 11,000 PPHPD, but we can increase capacity to above and beyond 30,000 PPHPD means this project is not under built. It's the complete opposite of under built. It's ridiculously future proofed.

It's kind of like how if someone pushed you on the street, you cannot say they are a drug dealer. You can say they assaulted you, you can say they were inconsiderate, you can say they pushed you, but you can't claim they are a drug dealer. Similarly, you can say the LRT isn't running enough trains for today's ridership, you can say you don't like the fact that trains don't have grab bars in the aisles, you can say the door issues suck, but you can't say the LRT is under built. It's just not true.
     
     
  #13370  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 10:13 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles5 View Post
You know what they say about assumptions.

As for an explanation, they specifically stated that it was due to the fact that current ridership could be handled by 13 trains vice 15. I know some folks will dispute that it can, but that was the official reason. (ref)

I take your point about not necessarily believing assumptions or media speculation. However, the official explanation made no sense at the time and given that many (not all of course) of the early problems with the system are capacity related, it has subsequently proven to be totally wrong.

If in fact all of trains were fully operational on opening day there is just no reason to cut back the service so close to opening (worse case scenario you spend a minimal amount of driver salaries and electricity and have more comfortable crush loads). To me, hardware-based explanations (either a lack of working vehicles or something to do with the signalling that forced them to lower the capacity) are much more plausible.
     
     
  #13371  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 1:39 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
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So at the end of transit commission Manconi said they are trying to get the 14th train online, but they have not been able to yet.
     
     
  #13372  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 1:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Multi-modal View Post
So at the end of transit commission Manconi said they are trying to get the 14th train online, but they have not been able to yet.
No shit. Even if OC truly believed 13 trains would suffice, testing should have been fully completed with the 15 in the contract. Goal posts were moved. No two ways about this. They did what they could to rush testing.

RTG was also supposed to explore connecting Parliament Station with the NAC as part of the contract, but the City said "oh no, probably too expensive, never mind". If it's in the contract, follow the damn contract.
     
     
  #13373  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 3:11 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Well, what would the term be? The fact that we have not had enough trains built makes the under built term more reasonable.
I would say under deployed. The contract was to have 15 trains built for active use (plus 2 full spares) but only deployed 13 of them.
     
     
  #13374  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 4:28 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I would say under deployed. The contract was to have 15 trains built for active use (plus 2 full spares) but only deployed 13 of them.
John Manconi said yesterday that they have deployed the 14th train onto the system, but only on 2 occasions. I think they're concerned about having more TCMS/VOBC issues with more trains. I imagine once those issues are resolved the 14th and 15th trains will be out on a regular basis.
     
     
  #13375  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 4:37 PM
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Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I would say under deployed. The contract was to have 15 trains built for active use (plus 2 full spares) but only deployed 13 of them.
LOL, I would just call it “incomplete”. You can’t deploy trains that are not finished or fit for service
     
     
  #13376  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
John Manconi said yesterday that they have deployed the 14th train onto the system, but only on 2 occasions. I think they're concerned about having more TCMS/VOBC issues with more trains. I imagine once those issues are resolved the 14th and 15th trains will be out on a regular basis.
I am not sure. It is possible, but I am more inclined to think that they have had issues getting (and keeping) enough trains in operable condition. For an established system, 4 spare units (2 full trains) should be enough, but with the coupling issues and higher failure rate than expected, it may not have been. That could have been the reason for starting with only 13 trains was to give them more spares.

For those who don't known (I had to Google it myself):
TCMS = Train Control and Management System
VOBC = Vehicle On-Board Controller
     
     
  #13377  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 4:43 PM
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LOL, I would just call it “incomplete”. You can’t deploy trains that are not finished or fit for service
LOL, also a good description.
     
     
  #13378  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 5:44 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
No shit. Even if OC truly believed 13 trains would suffice, testing should have been fully completed with the 15 in the contract. Goal posts were moved. No two ways about this. They did what they could to rush testing.

RTG was also supposed to explore connecting Parliament Station with the NAC as part of the contract, but the City said "oh no, probably too expensive, never mind". If it's in the contract, follow the damn contract.
Well there is the mysterious level M in Parliament station, it seems like a potential future underground link
     
     
  #13379  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 5:56 PM
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Well there is the mysterious level M in Parliament station, it seems like a potential future underground link
I noticed that yesterday. You can see the elevator doors for that level, but no light. I guess that was the "secret" level part of the O-Train Fans October checklist. Based on the configuration, I would say it's a future tunnel between SunLife and Heritage, and not anywhere east.
     
     
  #13380  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I noticed that yesterday. You can see the elevator doors for that level, but no light. I guess that was the "secret" level part of the O-Train Fans October checklist. Based on the configuration, I would say it's a future tunnel between SunLife and Heritage, and not anywhere east.
It's really just a vestibule about the same size as at street level, but could probably be connected in any direction
     
     
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