The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by taiwan ren

Perhaps you're reading too much into this. In Saint John the distinction between the Lower Cove and Upper Cove had nothing to do with wealth or class. The names simply reflect their postion in regard to the mouth of the harbor. If you really want to examine class identity in a modern context, you might consider the neighborhood identity of the residents of York Point and Roberton's Wharf - Uptown or South End?

Sorry, I was speaking back to the 1780s when Saint John residents sometimes (or perhaps often) used the terms Upper Cove and Lower Cove to denote neighbourhoods and a series of associated class ramifications. Upper Cover was where the Royal administrative appointment holders lived (people like Solicitor General Ward Chipman, Surrogate General Edward Winslow, Attorney General Jonathan Bliss). This area consisted of streets like King, Prince William & Germain and was located above the docks. Merchants of higher class dry goods, gunpowder and books were all located there. Lower Cove ladies had their parlour parties and general high-class eighteenth-century finery.

On the other hand, Lower Cove indicated the areas around, and South of, Water and Dock Streets. Here was where "the common people" lived. Indeed it was Surrogate General Winslow who often deemed them "insolent and rude." They dealt in much less prestigious goods such as lumber and nails, and frequently resented the Upper Cove residents' snobbery and the political plums their social position had procured.

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by Ronald Jack

I
By the way, the so called "Partridge Island Breakwater" is actually the Negro Point Breakwater. Here is a photo of the Negro Point Light House in 1895 from the NBM Collection. The lighthouse sat on the breakwater.

Cheers! Ron Jack in B.C.

I thought that they changed the name when they extended it all the way between the mainland and the Island, or did I remember wrong?

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by random11

I agree with you that the port can do without Long Wharf (and we can do without that huge pile of crap sitting there currently - what an eyesore) however, my observation is aimed at both waterfront sites. How long have these been sitting empty? Any city in it's right mind would have capitalized on these prime locations by now. It scares me that we have such a lack of vision. We can build restaurants, book stores and coffee shops but when it comes to our waterfront and it's untapped potential we are stunned. Honestly, think about it: Do you know of any major city that would be waiting this long? How long would land and potential such as we have be sitting in Halifax, Montreal, Portland, Boston? I know we are not Montreal or Boston but I think anybody can see the point.

Is the glass half empty, or half full? It would be great if there was a bunch of existing brilliant development along the waterfront. But it's also quite interesting that the City has so much undeveloped waterfront to be able to do something great with. There are lots of mistakes to learn from - Toronto downtown Harbourfront comes to mind. Montreal - except for some good things they did with the Island they built, the rest of the waterfront seems to me to be nothing except a wasteland of oil refineries and container ports. I don't mind things taking a while, as long as what comes next is the right thing.

[Coyett]

Originally Posted by kwajo

Sorry, I was speaking back to the 1780s when Saint John residents sometimes (or perhaps often) used the terms Upper Cove and Lower Cove to denote neighbourhoods and a series of associated class ramifications. Upper Cover was where the Royal administrative appointment holders lived (people like Solicitor General Ward Chipman, Surrogate General Edward Winslow, Attorney General Jonathan Bliss). This area consisted of streets like King, Prince William & Germain and was located above the docks. Merchants of higher class dry goods, gunpowder and books were all located there. Lower Cove ladies had their parlour parties and general high-class eighteenth-century finery.

On the other hand, Lower Cove indicated the areas around, and South of, Water and Dock Streets. Here was where "the common people" lived. Indeed it was Surrogate General Winslow who often deemed them "insolent and rude." They dealt in much less prestigious goods such as lumber and nails, and frequently resented the Upper Cove residents' snobbery and the political plums their social position had procured.

Thanks for the background information - clearly the terms have much more significance than simple geographic markers. That said, it strikes me as odd that Ganong identitfied the coast guard site as "Upper Cove" and the existing Pugsley warehouse as "Lower Cove". Surely, a man of his reputation would have been aware of the implications of using these terms. In any case, I'm fairly certain the terms, as they apply to the locations I mentioned, can be traced to Bruce's survey of the harbor in 1761.

[kwajo]

Well you, and Ganong, are not wrong. The terms Lower Cove and Upper Cove mean two different things depending on context (and frankly, the one you described is the more frequently used by far). Lower, Middle and Upper Cove are all geographic names of areas of the Saint John Harbour, along the Parrtown peninsula. Lower Cove was where the Lantic sugar refinery was, Middle Cove was somewhere in the Pugsley area, and Upper Cove was near where Market Slip is now (although it might further North than that, I don't have my maps with me). Meanwhile, the terms I described were somewhat based on those geographic names, but grew to mean different things in a social context back in the era when the Loyalists first arrived.

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

. Montreal - except for some good things they did with the Island they built, the rest of the waterfront seems to me to be nothing except a wasteland of oil refineries and container ports. I don't mind things taking a while, as long as what comes next is the right thing.

There is a plan to fix up a part of that wasteland... I hope something going to happen soon.

http://www.havremontreal.qc.ca/en/index.htm

[kwajo]

double post

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by HalifaxMtl666

There is a plan to fix up a part of that wasteland... I hope something going to happen soon.

http://www.havremontreal.qc.ca/en/index.htm

Thanks for the link!

[PersonPlaceorThing]

Originally Posted by Seely32

Waterfront's are touchy areas they are worth so much that people become too picky which is good but can also leave the land vacant for many years and thats what we see now.

How much are waterfront's worth to private developers? What sort of rent premium does one get for being on the water? Does it offset the costs of maintaining seawalls.

[Seely32]

It all depends on how far sea levels rise. In saint john we have a pretty good system of sea walls but in other places in the world it costs a lot of money to maintain. Britain has some very well placed policies pertaining sea walls and cost up to 500 millio a year. Sea walls are tricky in our port they are maintained by the goverment but becuase we see minimal sea level rise I beleive its close to .2 mm a year we are not in that bad of shape. The rent premium all depends on location i.e. robertson's warf will not have to worry about its sea wall and will turn a large profit for its waterfront location. In many larger city's developer will stay far away for waterfronts becuase for many years the have been ill taken care of ports, railyards, or outdated industry. Exactly what we have at long warf, the coast guard site and the lantic sugar site. These things could keep private developers away in other places.

[kwajo]

Yeah every time I ask various "big whigs" about the Coast Guard site and why the project is being delayed so much, the answer is always the Sea Wall. It's in rough shape, and is far too low to build on given the fact that sea levels are rising and Saint John is sinking. Fixing and improving it will add a lot to the cost of any project, and I can imagine that any perspective developer would feel it was the responsibility of some level of government to fix it, not them.

[Helladog]

Anyone see the paper today? We've got the deputy mayor whining about the scope of the justice complex and garage, while it's kept under wraps for the time being. She's says it's not a Saint John type of building or something along those lines...I guess that means it isn't red brick, is more than 2 stories and isn't falling apart.

The way I see it, they need to buy the land before revealing the plan, or this could go the way of the coast guard site, taking years upon years to get done. Sounds like somebody's eyeing the mayor's seat.

[Seely32]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Anyone see the paper today? We've got the deputy mayor whining about the scope of the justice complex and garage, while it's kept under wraps for the time being. She's says it's not a Saint John type of building or something along those lines...I guess that means it isn't red brick, is more than 2 stories and isn't falling apart.

The way I see it, they need to buy the land before revealing the plan, or this could go the way of the coast guard site, taking years upon years to get done. Sounds like somebody's eyeing the mayor's seat.

I agree

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Anyone see the paper today? We've got the deputy mayor whining about the scope of the justice complex and garage, while it's kept under wraps for the time being. She's says it's not a Saint John type of building or something along those lines...I guess that means it isn't red brick, is more than 2 stories and isn't falling apart.

Outdated, tiresome, in need of replacement ... oh wait, are we talking about the Deputy Mayor or the "Saint John type of building"?

[Helladog]

[NEW UPTOWN LIQUOR STORE NO WHERE TO BE FOUND]
NOV15/07/2:38PM

NB LIQUOR IS STILL ON THE SEARCH FOR AN UPTOWN SAINT JOHN LOCATION TO BUILD A NEW LIQUOR STORE. SPOKESPERSON NORA LACY TELLS CHSJ NEWS THEY HAVEN’T HAD MUCH LUCK FINDING AN APPROPRIATE SPACE. OFFICIALS ARE NETWORKING WITHIN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY HOPING TO GET A LEAD ON A GREAT SPOT---BUT SO FAR NOTHING HAS COME UP.

THE PROVINCE HAS BEEN SEARCHING FOR A NEW HIGH-PROFILE LOCATION TO BUILD A LARGER UPTOWN LIQUOR STORE SINCE LAST YEAR.

<<< I guess they'll just have to build another one out East >>>


[WATER TREATMENT PLANT UPGRADE]
NOV14/07/2:23PM

THE TOWN OF ROTHESAY IS UPGRADING ITS WATER TREATMENT PLANT. THE PROJECT CONTRACT HAS BEEN AWARDED TO MARICON CONSTRUCTION MANAGEMENT AT A COST OF 307 THOUSAND DOLLARS. DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS SCOTT HATCHER TELLS CHSJ NEWS THEY ARE UPGRADING OLD EQUIPMENT THAT HAS BEEN OPERATING FOR MORE THAN 10 YEARS.

HATCHER SAYS CONSTRUCTION WILL BEGIN LATE NOVEMBER AND SHOULD TAKE JUST OVER TWO MONTHS TO COMPLETE.

[ROTHESAY COUNCIL]
NOV13/07 11:24 AM

HALIFAX-BASED SHANNEX WILL BE AT TONIGHT’S ROTHESAY COUNCIL MEETING. THEY WILL MAKE A PRESENTATION TO OUTLINE THE FINAL DETAILS OF THEIR PROPOSED SENIOR’S COMPLEX THEY HOPE TO CONSTRUCT AT THE CORNERS OF MILLENIUM AND DONLYN DRIVES. IT WILL FEATURE THREE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF CARE AND UP TO 147 UNITS AND MAYOR BILL BISHOP TELLS CHSJ NEWS, HE REALLY LIKES THE LOOK OF THIS PROJECT.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME CONSTRUCTION ACTIVITY IN THE WOODED AREA JUST PAST THE INTERSECTION NEAR KENT BUT MAYOR BISHOP SAYS THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS PROPOSAL. TONIGHT’S COUNCIL MEETING GETS STARTED AT EIGHT O’CLOCK.

[Seely32]

Harbour Passage is heading to Reversing Falls

For Immediate Release – October 23, 2007

(Saint John, NB) – Harbour Passage is heading to Reversing Falls. On Monday evening, Saint John Common Council awarded a $695,000 contract to Fairville Construction Ltd. for the construction of the Reversing Falls Lookout. Construction is expected to begin this year. The work, being awarded, includes a magnificent lookout from the old bridge abutments at the world famous Reversing Falls, access ramp and stairs, connecting walkways, lighting, landscaping, and interpretation panels at the eastern end of the Reversing Falls Bridge.



In the past, investments to Harbour Passage have proven to act as a catalyst bringing new development to the city. Over the next 15 years, waterfront development planners anticipate private sector investment leading to over $200 million being added to the city’s tax base.



“People visiting Saint John for their first time will form impressions of Saint John and we see this as an important investment in our image and new brand for the region”, said Mayor McFarlane. “It represents a significant progress as Reversing Falls is a popular tourism destination within the City of Saint John and the waterfront project is helping us grow our tax base.”



“The Province of New Brunswick is proud to be a major partner in this important part of Saint John’s waterfront development project,” said Roly MacIntyre, Minister of Supply and Services and Minister responsible for the Regional Development Corporation. “Investing in community projects such as this one will help us work toward our goal of self-sufficiency.”



“We are very appreciative of the support of both the provincial and municipal government and the cooperation between all partners on this project,” said Bill MacMackin, President of Saint John Waterfront Development. “Having a good first impression doesn’t only make sense from a tourism perspective, it goes a long way to making a positive statement of this entire region as a place to live, visit, and invest in.”



Saint John Waterfront Development’s mandate is to channel, focus, and direct the community of Greater Saint John’s collective energy and enthusiasm toward waterfront development.



-30-

[Alberta Bound]

^^ Sounds great! Harbour passage is definitely something I miss.

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by Helladog

[NEW UPTOWN LIQUOR STORE NO WHERE TO BE FOUND]
NOV15/07/2:38PM

NB LIQUOR IS STILL ON THE SEARCH FOR AN UPTOWN SAINT JOHN LOCATION TO BUILD A NEW LIQUOR STORE. SPOKESPERSON NORA LACY TELLS CHSJ NEWS THEY HAVEN’T HAD MUCH LUCK FINDING AN APPROPRIATE SPACE. OFFICIALS ARE NETWORKING WITHIN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY HOPING TO GET A LEAD ON A GREAT SPOT---BUT SO FAR NOTHING HAS COME UP.

THE PROVINCE HAS BEEN SEARCHING FOR A NEW HIGH-PROFILE LOCATION TO BUILD A LARGER UPTOWN LIQUOR STORE SINCE LAST YEAR.

<<< I guess they'll just have to build another one out East >>>

.

A year and no prospects? It's a little difficult to believe...

A nice two level renovated space on King street, as part of the cruise ship terminal plans, perhaps in that lovely parking lot on the corner of coburg/union....theres a *ton* of options available if they design/think out of the box.....i'm not entirely sure what they are waiting for....

[Seely32]

Originally Posted by PostModernPrometheus

A year and no prospects? It's a little difficult to believe...

A nice two level renovated space on King street, as part of the cruise ship terminal plans, perhaps in that lovely parking lot on the corner of coburg/union....theres a *ton* of options available if they design/think out of the box.....i'm not entirely sure what they are waiting for....

I say go waterfront here, i think coburg and union have enough problems as is. I mean do we really want to put a liquer store near rookies, the great canadian and the iceberg(no way in hell)

Go to the waterfront nb liquer can afford to stay at a lost till we get more down there. People will go to alcohol no matter where its at.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Anyone see the paper today? We've got the deputy mayor whining about the scope of the justice complex and garage, while it's kept under wraps for the time being. She's says it's not a Saint John type of building or something along those lines...I guess that means it isn't red brick, is more than 2 stories and isn't falling apart.

The way I see it, they need to buy the land before revealing the plan, or this could go the way of the coast guard site, taking years upon years to get done. Sounds like somebody's eyeing the mayor's seat.

I would guess that the justice complex would probably clash with that innovative new "Saint John type of building" Cruise Welcome Centre...