Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by reddog794

So we have a councilor that now has publicly supported a 20-25k stadium, there is an underground urban-geek (spade is a spade) primordial soup. Some fantastic, realistic renderings, with my only question being, is there a way fenwick to calculate the structural area, and work out at least how much concrete would be required, as well as steel supports and cantilevers? Then we can gauge the cost a little better. Not accurately, but at least a loose figure on what you've designed.

Does Ms. Uteck check this board, and if so, how can we get this information to her, as she is obviously one of the tails wagging the dog. This Moncton Uteck Bowl could be a blessing in disguise. It makes good ammo for those who do want proper sports and entertainment infrastructure.

Just the steam coming out of my ears.

I got my M.Eng in Chemical Engineering and therefore took some structural engineering courses as an undergraduate - but that doesn't qualify me to make such calculations. I am in the R&D field specializing in fire retardant plastics. The best that I can do is come up with 3D conceptual models to check sight-lines and get an idea of the size required for a stadium. I can also research the building code requirements to see how many washrooms are required, the exit requirements, concourse square footage required, etc. However, in the end, qualified structural engineers would be required to do the structural design. With such a structure that will hold thousands of people, the structural engineers should have many years of experience.

I am mainly interested in getting ideas from people on this forum regarding the general conceptual stadium design that people like. One way to get a rough cost estimate is to base the design on other stadiums that have been built in North America and Europe. I like the Cardiff City Stadium which is somewhat similar to the Red Bull Stadium in New Jersey except the Cardiff City Stadium is much cheaper. It seems like anything built in the NY City area is expensive.

Cardiff City stadium - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium
Red Bull Arena - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_Arena_%28New_Jersey%29

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I received this from Councillor Hendsbee. Thank you Councillor Hendsbee.



PS: My mail server didn't deliver this email until noontime - did someone catch this discussion who can share the highlights.

I caught a lot of it. It was split 50/50 as far as the public goes. That means almost 200 000 people would support it. More than enough fans to fill seats. It was decided that calling it a Football Stadium is what's hurting it. Football alone cannot support a stadium in Halifax. It has to be marketed as a Multi-Purpose Stadium. Friends of the common and other groups should be pro this stadium as it would get concerts off the Common.
Someone again mentioned Burnside as a place for the stadium. I disagree fully on that as its about the furthest from any CORE population you can get and no real public transit to get people to and from. I like the West End Mall proposal because of location and access to transit.

[halifaxboyns]

Welkin - you make a good point, that yes in many cases it boils down to an extra 15 minutes of driving on a bus or in a car.

And a 100% agree with you that while loosing the event hurts, it really elevates this as a cause.

I think from many of the perspectives of the group - we just want to see the best stadium for the money and for some of us (myself included) we believe it could be an iconic structure that leads to something greater.

That being said; when I lived in Halifax I must admit - I wasn't a big sports person. I never went to Wind Jammer games, or moosehead games. Don't really know why, just didn't. I live in Calgary now, you don't see me at Flames Games or Stamp's games either. Would I go in HRM? I might...so to me if you boil it down, I really wouldn't care where it goes.

But because so many times HRM has been accused of not planning for things to grow or expand, the location needs to take that into account. Can it be on an existing location (brownfield site) - sure. Will it create redevelopment, I think a reasonable answer is maybe.

We just need to be careful to consider the future as we think about this. I have the sneaking feeling that in the end; this will end up out in the hinterland on some greenfield site. I don't like the idea but so be it, if it gets built.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I caught a lot of it. It was split 50/50 as far as the public goes. That means almost 200 000 people would support it. More than enough fans to fill seats. It was decided that calling it a Football Stadium is what's hurting it. Football alone cannot support a stadium in Halifax. It has to be marketed as a Multi-Purpose Stadium. Friends of the common and other groups should be pro this stadium as it would get concerts off the Common.
Someone again mentioned Burnside as a place for the stadium. I disagree fully on that as its about the furthest from any CORE population you can get and no real public transit to get people to and from. I like the West End Mall proposal because of location and access to transit.

Careful on that assumption - because if I was asked, I would support a stadium but I may not necessairily buy tickets to a CFL game (mainly because I just never was a sports fan). But i'm a reasonable minded person to say that I might go if I had friends who went with me. Just nit picking though.

You are probably right about the commons folk though - I'd be interested to gage the reaction of Peggy Cameron and Bev Miller; see their thoughts? My fear is that with all the reaction happening so fast, this would end up in Burnside or Bayer's Lake. But, like Fenwick has pointed out - even if you put it at Shannon, you'd still have to build the transportation system to get people there since the site isn't well serviced. West End Mall and the Willow/Windsor Park sites have the benefit of existing transit now, which could be expanded.

Have we thought about any sites in Bedford? What about near Rim or am I drifting back into the greenfield issue again?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I caught a lot of it. It was split 50/50 as far as the public goes. That means almost 200 000 people would support it. More than enough fans to fill seats. It was decided that calling it a Football Stadium is what's hurting it. Football alone cannot support a stadium in Halifax. It has to be marketed as a Multi-Purpose Stadium. Friends of the common and other groups should be pro this stadium as it would get concerts off the Common.
Someone again mentioned Burnside as a place for the stadium. I disagree fully on that as its about the furthest from any CORE population you can get and no real public transit to get people to and from. I like the West End Mall proposal because of location and access to transit.

Thanks for the information Jstaleness. I think that a stadium design such as the Cardiff City Stadium would be very useful as a multi-purpose stadium. It wouldn't seem as confined and gloomy as a completely enclosed stadium but it has lots of protection from the rain, wind and sun. I think of it as being like a retractable dome which is always open. I could see this as being useful for much of the year. Even during the winter the field could be cleared and sports could be played on mild days during the winter.

I like this panoramic image.

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium )

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Have we thought about any sites in Bedford? What about near Rim or am I drifting back into the greenfield issue again?

I think that again poses problems getting the public out there. Sure the 102 is nearby but that Hammonds Plains Rd is pretty much the main artery out there. Also a very under serviced transit route.
Now if the Kearney Lake road could be expanded or another secondary hwy added from the 102 to Hammonds Plains road were added it might be quite easy. Not a bad area. 4 pad arena, RIM Stadium? Blackberry Bowl? maybe?

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I think that again poses problems getting the public out there. Sure the 102 is nearby but that Hammonds Plains Rd is pretty much the main artery out there. Also a very under serviced transit route.
Now if the Kearney Lake road could be expanded or another secondary hwy added from the 102 to Hammonds Plains road were added it might be quite easy. Not a bad area. 4 pad arena, RIM Stadium? Blackberry Bowl? maybe?

It was just a thought - I didn't want to be Halifax/Dartmouth centric. Yes that was a joke.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

You are probably right about the commons folk though - I'd be interested to gage the reaction of Peggy Cameron and Bev Miller; see their thoughts? My fear is that with all the reaction happening so fast, this would end up in Burnside or Bayer's Lake. But, like Fenwick has pointed out - even if you put it at Shannon, you'd still have to build the transportation system to get people there since the site isn't well serviced. West End Mall and the Willow/Windsor Park sites have the benefit of existing transit now, which could be expanded.

Have we thought about any sites in Bedford? What about near Rim or am I drifting back into the greenfield issue again?

I know that many people are getting tired of my opinion but here I go again. Much of this discussion over the past couple of days has been sparked by the Larry Uteck Bowl going to Moncton in 2011. This is a university event so having it in Bedford or Shannon Park doesn't really fit the needs of university students residing at SMU and Dalhousie. I know that there are students living in Dartmouth but will the majority of university students want to travel to Bedford or even Shannon Park?

Also, at the risk of offending people, the comment about an extra 15 minute ride only applies to people with cars. A multi-purpose stadium should be easily accessed even by people without cars (and people who want to leave their cars at home).

[halifaxboyns]

Fenwick - no one should be offended at anyone's opinions. We all have strong feelings about this and shouldn't feel bad about disagreeing...I just want to keep us (at least attempt too) focused.

Fenwick has a point - we shouldn't look at the stadium from the perspective of one event. However, I would point out fenwick that I believe a previous comment (working from memory here) that you made on the location near SMU/DAL had to do with the fact it would be close for university football. So if we take the position that we can't focus on this one event, I'd suggest that the Robie Street location would not have that to support it.

Transportation can be built to fit the situation - so for example if Willow Park was selected (taking out the issue of demolition, cost of buying the land and just focusing on transportation) the existing routes can be expanded, new routes added. The same would be true of Shannon Park; regardless of the other issues to get the site built, you can build the transportation to get people to and from Shannon too (Fast ferry for example, added transit, special routes).

So if we look at cost, sites will be different. You'll have the cost to build the facility (stadium, parking, etc), but:
Brownfield will have:

• Potential demo of buildings
• Potential Environmental clean up
• Upgrading of existing sewer/water services
• Upgrading of existing road network
• Upgrading or addition to existing transit system (terminals, vehicles)

Greenfield will have:

• Building road infrastructure
• Building new water/sewer/storm
• Creating new transit options

[Jstaleness]

So most of us agree that in Halifax there is no doubt that in order for the stadium to be accessible and green it needs to be built somewhere within the city itself. It does make since because like has been stated that this is where the Universities and bulk of the population are. The more central the better. Halifax isn't that big overall. A central stadium would be walk in fans for the most part wouldn't it? Especially if located in the old school grounds that has been mentioned. Of course the more central and populated the area is the more outcry from the public as far as noise levels are concerned. Games are loud but Concerts are even louder. How would we overcome that obstacle?
I plan on emailing my local councilor in regards to the stadium situation and the reasons why I think it is needed. Hopefully if enough of the population does the same then City Hall will have no choice but to entertain the thought of building one.

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Fenwick - no one should be offended at anyone's opinions. We all have strong feelings about this and shouldn't feel bad about disagreeing...I just want to keep us (at least attempt too) focused.

Fenwick has a point - we shouldn't look at the stadium from the perspective of one event. However, I would point out fenwick that I believe a previous comment (working from memory here) that you made on the location near SMU/DAL had to do with the fact it would be close for university football. So if we take the position that we can't focus on this one event, I'd suggest that the Robie Street location would not have that to support it.

Transportation can be built to fit the situation - so for example if Willow Park was selected (taking out the issue of demolition, cost of buying the land and just focusing on transportation) the existing routes can be expanded, new routes added. The same would be true of Shannon Park; regardless of the other issues to get the site built, you can build the transportation to get people to and from Shannon too (Fast ferry for example, added transit, special routes).

So if we look at cost, sites will be different. You'll have the cost to build the facility (stadium, parking, etc), but:
Brownfield will have:

• Potential demo of buildings
• Potential Environmental clean up
• Upgrading of existing sewer/water services
• Upgrading of existing road network
• Upgrading or addition to existing transit system (terminals, vehicles)

Greenfield will have:

• Building road infrastructure
• Building new water/sewer/storm
• Creating new transit options

One thing they would both have in common. They would BOTH create Jobs no matter what option.

[reddog794]

please remove, off topic.

[Empire]

Marine Park Stadium

• Losing the Uteck Bowl is the wake up call that was needed and can be the catalyst for a new stadium....the downside is that there is one less event to support the business case

- I like Willow Park as a location but I think it has too much baggage in terms of land acquisition, access, noise etc.
- My second pick would be Shannon Park. I think this site has great potential with lots of space, accessability and major visibility. Over 50,000 people a day would look down on the stadium form the bridge.
- the vacant PMQ's at Shannon Park offer an opportunity to provide a mixed housing waterfront community.
- parking could be located on site at Mic Mac Mall, Dartmouth Crossing Hfx. Shopping Centre etc. Shuttle busses could run to the stadium just as they do for the concerts on the commons. A ferry and private water taxis could add more access.
- the International Airshow in Shearwater usually draws around 100,000 people over the weekend and that doesn't seem to be an issue in terms of Shearwater being a non-central location with no parking.
- I still think there could be some mixed use built into the stadium to attract gov. funding. Halifax is lacking an aquarium so why not build an aquarium as part of the stadium. This would be an enclosed area under the stands to be protected from the elements or perhaps at one end. When an event is on, the aquarium would be closed to the public but of course free for the 30,000 in the stadium (or maybe charge $1.00). In between events the aquarium would be open to the public, bus tours, school groups, cruise ship tourists etc. Maybe there could be a marine centre built in. (Marine Park) Many of these people would want to attend an event at the stadium after being introduced to it.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

So most of us agree that in Halifax there is no doubt that in order for the stadium to be accessible and green it needs to be built somewhere within the city itself. It does make since because like has been stated that this is where the Universities and bulk of the population are. The more central the better. Halifax isn't that big overall. A central stadium would be walk in fans for the most part wouldn't it? Especially if located in the old school grounds that has been mentioned. Of course the more central and populated the area is the more outcry from the public as far as noise levels are concerned. Games are loud but Concerts are even louder. How would we overcome that obstacle?
I plan on emailing my local councilor in regards to the stadium situation and the reasons why I think it is needed. Hopefully if enough of the population does the same then City Hall will have no choice but to entertain the thought of building one.

I am glad that you stated this question. I was actually thinking about this earlier today when I posted the image of the Cardiff City Stadium. Having it completely surrounded by a wall and partial roof will help to dampen the noise. It isn't as effective as a completely enclosed dome but it will certainly have a positive effect. Such a stadium design will tend to direct much of the noise upwards.This is another advantage of the stadium shown below:

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium )

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Originally Posted by Empire

• Losing the Uteck Bowl is the wake up call and can be the catalyst for a new stadium....the downside is that there is one less event to support the business case

I sincerely hope this does indeed prove to be the wake up call that is needed. I only hope that enough people will continue to voice their displeasure with this turn of events and put pressure on the mayor and HRM councillors to get something done.

[fenwick16]

Here are a couple of images of how the Cardiff City Stadium would fit at Windsor Street and Young Street. I downloaded the Cardiff City Stadium model from the Google 3D Warehouse - it is a 3D model drawn by username dizzyHARSH . I just added a few of the surrounding buildings such as the Halifax Forum.

The Cardiff City Stadium playing field would be wide enough for Canadian football. However, about 60 feet would have to be added to the length. I think that with landscaping around the stadium, such a stadium would help rejuvenate a somewhat neglected area of the municipality.

[Welkin]

Very nice drawing Fenwick; but I think it does show that they would need to get rid of the superstore and the electrical substation in order to make this site really work.

It does have an advantage over Shannon Park (which I think would offer great views of the harbour) in that it is much more accessible. IMO, Shannon Park would turn into a traffic nightmare for the thousands of fans trying to get over from the peninsula.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Very nice drawing Fenwick; but I think it does show that they would need to get rid of the superstore and the electrical substation in order to make this site really work.

It does have an advantage over Shannon Park (which I think would offer great views of the harbour) in that it is much more accessible. IMO, Shannon Park would turn into a traffic nightmare for the thousands of fans trying to get over from the peninsula.

I really like the potential of this area. It has been a sports location since 1929 when the Halifax Forum was built on the adjacent block (I have good memories of going to watch the Nova Scotia Voyageurs win the Calder Cup at the Halifax Forum). It is also close to the Mayflower Curling Club.

I did a sketch of what I believe would be the minimum land requirement. If additional land could be attained at a reasonable cost then that would be a bonus. I believe that the stadium would fit by removing just the NSLC addition from the Superstore. Possibly the NSLC could be incorporated into the stadium. If incorporated into the stadium then I think that the NSLC store could remain open at its current location until the stadium was complete and then once the new stadium and NSLC store were completed, the old store could be demolished.

Parts of the electrical substation might have to be slightly moved but couldn't this substation power the stadium? I read about a stadium that installed solar panels on its roof and now supplies excess power to its electrical grid - could this be a potential source of revenue? I don't know if this would really be cost effective but it would be a good selling point - a stadium that produces power instead of just drawing power. In addition, rain water could be collected to supply water to the washroom toilets. Turbines such as at the Farmers Market could possibly be connected to the cantilever roof support poles.

[halifaxboyns]

So taking a queue from Fenwick, I decided to do a sketch of Shannon Park with the stadium location. Before I go any further, I don't have a good drawing program at home beyond paint. So I appoligize for the crudeness of the design, I'm also going to repost it in the Shannon Park section for the design comments about the idea. I'll explain the concept more there.

But I wanted to get a sense of the how I could fit the stadium in and then try to make the area densify. Just one explanation - whatever isn't covered in colour remains as shown.

As you can see with the drawing, I've included the stadium as the centre feature and much of the park space remains as is. The school would redevelop as necessary. I wasn't fully aware of each building - so I may have elimated buildings which otherwise should remain? If so, please let me know. I've tried to keep a number of the PMQ's, but I'd like to see more high density.

Please note the ferry terminal and two parking lots (I vision as mainly parkades) and the ferry terminal would have a bus bay for transit arriving and departing.

The stadium site could encorporate additional parking as necessary and potential anything else, like say an aquarium. Despite the odd angle of the site for the stadium on the left side, based on fenwick's scale drawing I am pretty sure that the stadium he showed in his drawing at the Windsor site could easily fit here with additional parking, plaza areas etc. I capped heights (as indicated in stories) to provide the building an iconic view from the harbour and the bridge; although that height could be lowered if the building was shorter than 6 stories - the idea is to make sure that it would be an iconic building easily viewed from the harbour and the bridge.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

So most of us agree that in Halifax there is no doubt that in order for the stadium to be accessible and green it needs to be built somewhere within the city itself. It does make since because like has been stated that this is where the Universities and bulk of the population are. The more central the better. Halifax isn't that big overall. A central stadium would be walk in fans for the most part wouldn't it? Especially if located in the old school grounds that has been mentioned. Of course the more central and populated the area is the more outcry from the public as far as noise levels are concerned. Games are loud but Concerts are even louder. How would we overcome that obstacle?
I plan on emailing my local councilor in regards to the stadium situation and the reasons why I think it is needed. Hopefully if enough of the population does the same then City Hall will have no choice but to entertain the thought of building one.

You cant say we all agree by any stretch.....on anything other than build one.
I for one think a stadium needs to be off peninsula.....Shannon Pk, Kearney Lk Quarry area, Mainland Commons area....all make good sense for costs. Acquiring land on peninsula is costly and the traffic is simply horrific....plus the majority of the population does not live on peninsula HFx anymore....HRM is alot more than the bottle neck of the peninsula. Transportation issue on the old city peninsula are simply encumbers by geography......