Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Okay folks - lets stop the jabs and focus here. We're not here to poke fun and tease, let's focus on the goal here.

A few locations have been discussed, with mixed reviews on each. The list I have going so far (please add to if I've missed a site):
Shannon Park;
Forum/Windsor Park;
South End Halifax (near IWK);
Dartmouth Crossing/Burnside (I'm generallizing both areas into one for the sake of ease).

I also seem to recall someone mentioning ragged lake, or somewhere out that way?

Question for you fenwick> since we've talked about the cost of the project, did your cost projection for the forum site factor in site aquisition costs? Demolition and potential environmental clean up? I think we need to see where that would be because cost will be a big factor.

Shannon Park you can easily tack on probably at least $20 million for new roads and infrastructure - but that can be recouped through local levies on new development (assuming private developers do most of the work).

Btw, I wasn't trying to pit the convention centre against the stadium. I was merely pointing out that if the one project did not proceed (for whatever reason); there may be a means to get funds to allow this project to proceed. If the convention centre does go ahead; Provincial monies should still be made available for this project too. IMO, if both went ahead, I think you would seem the market forces improve for hotels dramatically (once both were in operation).

I would add two more potential sites that were previously mentioned - The Mainland Commons near the new Canada Games Centre and The West Mall area. Personally, I would put these two sites ahead of Shannon Park since both have better public transit and are closer to SMU and Dalhousie University.

Although, I realize that the Halifax Forum area will cost more for land acquisition, demolition and environmental cleanup, I feel that there are big savings in existing infrastructure, public transit and available parking. I think you are dismissing this substantial cost at a Shannon Park site by assuming that it will be a private undertaking that can have levies applied to it (why couldn't this same argument be made for a Halifax Forum site?). I would hope that 25% of the cost would come from private contributions (small and large) so applying levies would be applying levies to the remaining 75% of the cost that would have to be covered by the three levels of government. This cost is an added cost no matter how you look at it.

There is more involved in selecting a site than just the up-front cost, the stadium should be located where it has the best chance of succeeding. An unbiased economic analysis should be conducted for each of a short list of sites.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

BrettinHalifax, it is interesting how you took my statement and twisted it around to support your viewpoint. No, I am not contradicting myself - I think that a $60 - $80 million dollar stadium is an attainable goal for Halifax, just as building a $20 million dollar stadium was an attainable goal for Moncton.

I initially thought in terms of a cheap stadium in a cheap location such as Dartmouth Crossings but that concept didn't seem to get much support on this forum (you can go back and see what I posted 1 year ago). It is not a contradiction for me to now state that I think that the Halifax Forum area is the best location because it is in a central location where it can utilize good transit connections, it can also utilize parking that is close by, it has good road access, and many people can just walk to that location. My current viewpoint came from reading what others have posted on this forum. If you go back and read this thread from the beginning, you will see that my viewpoint has been molded by others who have posted on this forum. I now strongly believe that a central location such as the Halifax Forum area is the best choice (it doesn't have to be the DND site).

The Halifax Forum location seems to get the most agreement from others on this forum, as does an economically priced $60 - $80 million dollar stadium. (A cheap stadium on the outskirts does not get much support and the goal is to get a stadium built). BrettinHalifax, I applaud your efforts for trying to get a stadium built in Halifax but if you can't convince enough people that a cheap stadium on the outskirts of the municipality is the best choice then you are fighting for a lost cause. The cause is to get a stadium built. Many people are going to have differing views, if you pick a location that a majority won't support then a stadium won't be built - unless you have $20 - $30 million dollars to spend.

As an example, Shannon Park is a site that has been mentioned for many years as a possible site for a stadium but it doesn't seem to get enough people backing it. I am old enough to remember the Shannon Park area when it was considered for a possible new Metro Centre back in the early 1970's. It was eventually decided to locate the Metro Centre in the downtown core. Can you say that Shannon Park would have been a better location for the Halifax Metro Centre? We need to learn from choices that Halifax has made that have worked (example the Metro Centre). We also need to learn from choices that other municipalities have made (some of these municipalities have had large stadiums for 100 years and continue to predominately select central locations). If Halifax is going to build a stadium then let's do it right the first time. Let's select a site and stadium concept that the majority will accept.

I have stated my viewpoint - that a stadium should be built in the best possible location in order to succeed. I don't see the contradiction.

Fenwick
That is an unfair comparison....a convention centre is a totally different type of facility......the only fair comparison would when it is used as a sporting event. Convention business can often be a large percentage of "out of town" visitors.....hotel, restaurants, attractions all needing to be central...and some conventions last for days or even week long....

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I don't disagree that it will be a sad day if the convention centre does not go ahead.

As I said above, I agree that we "need" both projects in Halifax. It is just not obvious to me that there are the public dollars available for this without raising taxes! That seems to me to be especially true with a stadium since there has not, to date, been a single private entity come forward with a funding plan. It would be different if they were simply looking for public funds to help out, but why should a stadium be built 100% with tax dollars?? Why is there no private group stepping forward with a plan here?

I do also find it odd that some of the most vocal people calling for public funds for a stadium seem to be conservatives... whereas my understanding of conservative dogma is that public funds should never be used for projects like this, and certainly not at the expense of lowering taxes. Why then the huge support for this to be built with public funds? What we REALLY need is a private group to step forward and take the lead, and once they have a true plan then one could broach the topic of having some public funds included.

I think that 25% of the cost should come from private contributions (I won't call it an investment since it is just too risky). The government can recover much of the cost through PST and GST (or HST) whereas a private investor has no way of getting this benefit. I think that the total cost should not exceed $80 million for a complete stadium (including land cost). However, it could be a phased approach whereby the first phase might only be $40 million dollars which could be expanded when necessary.

[fenwick16]

I received this from Councillor Hendsbee. Thank you Councillor Hendsbee.

Hi Kevin -
News Radio 95.7FM - a Halifax Radio talk show (902-405-6000) is now on the topic about a stadium for HRM. - DH

PS: My mail server didn't deliver this email until noontime - did someone catch this discussion who can share the highlights.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Uteck Bowl loss to Moncton MAJOR BLOW!


In my humble opinion .......now is the time!!!! and possibly the one and only chance to grab the opportunity.....to even compete....in the immediate future!

CFL Commish offers a glimmer of hope, basically stating the fact that the new Moncton facility is too small (even expanded to 20,000) for any look at as permanent CFL franchise location.

So Halifax simply has to step up and build a 25/30,000 seat facility.....or we all go away with our tails between our legs.....and live with the likely hood of every concert, every outdoor sporting event, equipment show, etc etc heading to Moncton.

CALL your MP, call your MLA, call your HRM council member, write a letter to any paper that will print it.....do it now! I mean today!

AND press the "leadership" in this city/province to actively work with and encourage a private ownership group to come forward and take the lead on this. I firmly maintain that this will remain a pipedream without a private ownership group who wants to make this a reality. At that point they can drive this, and then one could talk about the inclusion of public funding of a portion of this project. This is not entirely dissimilar to the convention centre. More importantly, this is what has happened in cities that were successful in both building a stadium AND attracting a marquee sporting group. The ones that were 100% public with no private backer often end up flopping, as per any number of examples of rinks and stadiums that were built around North America and sit empty.

I have said it before and I will say it again... the lack of a stadium is definitely a failure of political leadership, but more so in the fact that they have be largely unsupportive of (if not sometimes outright hostile towards) private developers and business owners. Having said that, it is not exclusively a problem with the politicians.

Without an ownership group emerging to champion this, it will go no where.

[joeyedm]

they are also talking about hosting an outdoor NHL game, like the Winter Classic at the stadium. I think it might be unlikely, however it shows that Moncton likes to dream big.

http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/news/article/1227403

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think that 25% of the cost should come from private contributions (I won't call it an investment since it is just too risky). The government can recover much of the cost through PST and GST (or HST) whereas a private investor has no way of getting this benefit. I think that the total cost should not exceed $80 million for a complete stadium (including land cost). However, it could be a phased approach whereby the first phase might only be $40 million dollars which could be expanded when necessary.

I am not sure what you mean by "a private investor has no way of getting this benefit"?

It is risky indeed, but risky for all parties including governments. That nice windfall in tax revenues really only emerges if this is successful.

Yes an investor does not get the tax revenue, they get the profits! A private investor will only do this if there is a fair business case to be made. So, either there is a fair business case, at which point they will get their profit and the government gets the increased taxes and everyone is happy, or there is no business case at which point we are asking tax revenue to absorb a net loss and I certainly don't get the sense that that is going to happen in this climate.

I am not trying to be difficult or a pessimist. It is just a reality to me that this needs to be lead by a strong private ownership group with a strong business case, or it goes no where. It can't just be a case of build it and they will come (i.e. have the government build it and hope that an group comes forward and eventually signs a lease agreement). There is a void of political leadership in this region who are responsible for the failure of this happening, but I would argue that there has also been a failure of business leadership who have also demonstrated apathy towards projects like this.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think that if the convention centre doesn't proceed then it will show a real lack of direction from the NDP. If the Halifax area can't build a new convention centre then there isn't much hope for progress in the Halifax area.

Fenwick,

Any Stadium will have to have three Government levels funding to some extent. The problem is a bit of who is gonna jump up and scream....right now HRM better start jumping like crazy.... NDP provincially get no Fed support, because there are no Conservative seats in HRM....it all opposition. So if the feds pony up the MPs will be critical....saying its a Conservative vote buy.....HRM council cant get the provincial support either because the NDP have spent their cash too fast and furious...dockyards 20million, topping up pensions 500million, buying forest land who knows how much that all adds up to now.....but certainly somewhere around 100million.....all on the debt of us poor taxpayers.....
I would like to see the library project stopped.....its 55 million....! That gonna be some library!!!! how many libraries do we need......when we need one stadium!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Fenwick
That is an unfair comparison....a convention centre is a totally different type of facility......the only fair comparison would when it is used as a sporting event. Convention business can often be a large percentage of "out of town" visitors.....hotel, restaurants, attractions all needing to be central...and some conventions last for days or even week long....

I wish we could agree on more issues. I feel that if a CFL game attracted 25,000 people, there is a good chance that at least 2,000 - 3,000 would be from out of town (from Nova Scotia and even from out of the province). This would be equivalent to a very large convention. So I have to disagree again. I feel the stadium won't just be for residents but it will also attract people to the municipality and it could promote the municipality throughout Canada, just as a convention centre would. In my mind, these two venues will have very similar benefits and thus the stadium should be close to the city so that visitors can see historic Halifax and return with a good impression.

There is no question that big league teams like the Toronto Blue Jays and Indianapolis Colts promote the cities that they are located in. Although the CFL doesn't have the international appeal that MLB and the NFL have, it has a similar reputation in Canada.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I am not sure what you mean by "a private investor has no way of getting this benefit"?

It is risky indeed, but risky for all parties including governments. That nice windfall in tax revenues really only emerges if this is successful.

Yes an investor does not get the tax revenue, they get the profits! A private investor will only do this if there is a fair business case to be made. So, either there is a fair business case, at which point they will get their profit and the government gets the increased taxes and everyone is happy, or there is no business case at which point we are asking tax revenue to absorb a net loss and I certainly don't get the sense that that is going to happen in this climate.

I am not trying to be difficult or a pessimist. It is just a reality to me that this needs to be lead by a strong private ownership group with a strong business case, or it goes no where. It can't just be a case of build it and they will come (i.e. have the government build it and hope that an group comes forward and eventually signs a lease agreement). There is a void of political leadership in this region who are responsible for the failure of this happening, but I would argue that there has also been a failure of business leadership who have also demonstrated apathy towards projects like this.

There is simply no business case! Stadiums in small markets with no existing customer (lease contract) simply are hard to fund privately. There is no business case because the revenue is a big quesstimate game.........unless you have a compelling sell as a big huge monument for the public to see....

[halifaxboyns]

Fenwick, I think I may have been guilty of just assuming things again. When I refered to recovering some infrastructure cost from levies for Shannon Park, I assumed the same situation for any other site (be it greenfield or brownfield redevelopment).

Certainly you could make the argument that if it was located at West End Mall, Willow/Windsor Park Forum site or Shannon Park that there would be a good to high chance that redevelopment would occur (almost guarenteed I'd say with Shannon) and thus recovering costs through levies (even if it only recoups say 50%) would probably work.

I'd say it might be less so with the commons site and the Robie sites. The commons mainly because of the fact most of the major parcels already have developed into high rise apartments and I'd really hate to see the area west of Gottingen to North Park (which has some really charming old homes) get mowed down to become high rise. That's an area I think should remain the existing character (size). With Robie, I don't really see many large parcels that exist now - so you'd have to spend money to piece them together, which can be problematic. Not saying redevelopment wouldn't happen for those two, but it might be more problematic.

I think there have been a lot of good opinions about the stadium and ATL makes a good point that without a team - building it would be a risk, there is no doubt there.

As to the issue of the convention centre over this; I think we all agree that the want is high for both (at least on this forum) and I think it is reasonable to say the need is there for both. The economic realities (with NS growing debt) is that the money may only exist to fund one project. So I don't think it's unreasonable to take a step back and say if one project doesn't go ahead; then let's try the other (as a fall back). If the convention centre goes ahead; great. There may be the opportunity in that case to put forward the stadium option and potentially get funding for that as well (although I am not sure). Both projects are significant investments for HRM and we should look at all options that can be on the table. I really don't want to pit people who are for the convention centre against the stadium because it shouldn't be that way.

One last pontification before I settle in for my morning coffee - I can't scroll back and see who post this but whom ever said that the stadium should've been built 10 to 15 years ago - right on. But the problem would be now we'd be arguing about spending money to expand it!

[Welkin]

There has been a lot of discussion and very good arguments about where in Halifax to build a stadium, but let's get real; we would all flock to a CFL game regardless of where in HRM the stadium is built. Here we argue about the pros and cons of having to drive an extra 15 minutes one way or another when we are also expecting fans from Moncton or Sydney to drive hours to a game. The focus should not be where the stadium is going to be built, but how we are going to get the stadium built.

I think losing the Uteck Bowl to Moncton was the greatest thing in the world for our cause. It really brought home the stadium problem to the mayor and citizens of Halifax. The fact that Kelly was "Blindsided" by losing the Uteck shows just how out of touch he was in the whole stadium situation. Unfortunately with this group in power, we are going to have to start small and slowly build up a stadium to CFL standards. I still can't believe that Regina casually throws around the thought of building a half a billion dollar stadium and Halifax can't even fathom building a $25 million stadium. Regina has aggressive leadership that wants to dramatically improve their city, Halifax just has a bunch of pencil pushers who are afraid envision anything.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I am not sure what you mean by "a private investor has no way of getting this benefit"?

It is risky indeed, but risky for all parties including governments. That nice windfall in tax revenues really only emerges if this is successful.

Yes an investor does not get the tax revenue, they get the profits! A private investor will only do this if there is a fair business case to be made. So, either there is a fair business case, at which point they will get their profit and the government gets the increased taxes and everyone is happy, or there is no business case at which point we are asking tax revenue to absorb a net loss and I certainly don't get the sense that that is going to happen in this climate.

I am not trying to be difficult or a pessimist. It is just a reality to me that this needs to be lead by a strong private ownership group with a strong business case, or it goes no where. It can't just be a case of build it and they will come (i.e. have the government build it and hope that an group comes forward and eventually signs a lease agreement). There is a void of political leadership in this region who are responsible for the failure of this happening, but I would argue that there has also been a failure of business leadership who have also demonstrated apathy towards projects like this.

All that lazy council has to do is support and promote a "STADIUM FUND".

If you fund it they will build it.

[Welkin]

like a number of the economically priced stadiums - the Cardiff City Stadium looks good - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium . It would have to be stretched to be suitable for Canadian football though.

I have to agree with Fenwick on this one. Something like Cardiff City Stadium would be ideal for Halifax. I was there for a match this past May and the stadium was great. This type of design would be just perfect for Halifax.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Empire

All that lazy council has to do is support and promote a "STADIUM FUND".

If you fund it they will build it.

Potentially.

I think what is really needed is a mayor who actually believes in this, wants to make it happen, and goes out and actively works to encourage and bring people together to make it a reality. Part of that will be ponying up funds, but a huge huge part of that will be getting the business community to rally behind this (much like they have done for the convention centre).

I would note that, with respect to the federal government, the conservatives have certainly a long history of not wanting to fund projects like this with tax dollars unless they are for international events like the Olympics etc. Plus, the current conservative government is just as broke from overspending as the provincial NDP government... they have just overspent on different things like new jails and fancy planes to fight the cold war.

[beyeas]

Sue Uteck apparently gets Fenwick's vote for Mayor now I guess

PHILIP CROUCHER WITH FILES FROM ALEX BOUTILIER
METRO HALIFAX
Published: September 22, 2010 1:20 a.m.
Last modified: September 22, 2010 1:16 p.m.

Coun. Sue Uteck says today’s expected announcement about the Uteck Bowl leaving Halifax for Moncton is “a wake-up call” to our city.

“It says to Halifax, you can no longer sit on your laurels and think that, ‘Just because we’re Halifax, the event will come to us.’ It’s no longer the case,” she said.

“This had become a destination event and if we don’t smarten up and do something, Moncton will be the destination event (city).”

Uteck calls the Canadian Interuniversity Football semifinal named after her late husband Larry Uteck “our mini Grey Cup.”

That will now change.

Atlantic University Sport is holding a press conference in Moncton today where it’s expected the New Brunswick city’s new $20-million outdoor stadium will serve as the game’s host for 2011.

“It comes down to a monetary issue and, obviously, they saw more seats in (Moncton’s) stadium than they did down here,” said Mayor Peter Kelly, who was unaware this decision was coming.

“It’s a business decision that they made and, unfortunately, it looks like that for (2011).”

Uteck said Halifax needs a new medium-sized outdoor stadium, in the range of 20,000 to 25,000 seats.

“Huskies Stadium is no longer suitable as a venue,” Uteck said. “And you can’t blame Saint Mary’s. They need help with funding.”

[-Harlington-]

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Uteck tells Halifax to stop sitting 'on your laurels'
Councillor disappointed, not surprised to hear Uteck Bowl leaving for Moncton Council to discuss overall event planning strategy in coming weeks: Mayor


PHILIP CROUCHER WITH FILES FROM ALEX BOUTILIER
METRO HALIFAX
Published: September 22, 2010 1:20 a.m.
Last modified: September 22, 2010 1:16 p.m.
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Coun. Sue Uteck says today’s expected announcement about the Uteck Bowl leaving Halifax for Moncton is “a wake-up call” to our city.

“It says to Halifax, you can no longer sit on your laurels and think that, ‘Just because we’re Halifax, the event will come to us.’ It’s no longer the case,” she said.

“This had become a destination event and if we don’t smarten up and do something, Moncton will be the destination event (city).”

Uteck calls the Canadian Interuniversity Football semifinal named after her late husband Larry Uteck “our mini Grey Cup.”

That will now change.

Atlantic University Sport is holding a press conference in Moncton today where it’s expected the New Brunswick city’s new $20-million outdoor stadium will serve as the game’s host for 2011.

“It comes down to a monetary issue and, obviously, they saw more seats in (Moncton’s) stadium than they did down here,” said Mayor Peter Kelly, who was unaware this decision was coming.

“It’s a business decision that they made and, unfortunately, it looks like that for (2011).”

Uteck said Halifax needs a new medium-sized outdoor stadium, in the range of 20,000 to 25,000 seats.

“Huskies Stadium is no longer suitable as a venue,” Uteck said. “And you can’t blame Saint Mary’s. They need help with funding.”



im not sure exactly what a laurel is but maybe she just didnt wanna say asses, but thank god this is generating something even if it is sue uteck.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Moving the Uteck Bowl to Moncton is no surprise. Moncton has been very progressive and it shows. Halifax needs a new stadium in the worst way. What to hell is wrong with these city councillors and the mayor? Are they so naive as to beleive they can continue to bury their heads in the sand and do nothing on this stadium issue and nothing like this will happen? Compared to Moncton, Halifax is being run by government officials who refuse to acknowledge the stone age is over. The loss of this traditional Halifax event is shameful.

I really don't blame AUS officials who made this decision, really it is an easy one financially. A new 10,000 permanent seat stadium or a run down Huskies Stadium in need of alot of work or outright replacement. Decision seems fairly simple.

Last week I took in the Laval game at Huskies Stadium and this coming week-end I will be at the CFL game in Moncton. I'm sure after comparing the 2 facilities first hand I'd arrive at the same conclusion and move the Uteck Bowl to Moncton.

I really hope this does indeed serve as a wake-up call and somethimg positive comes out of all this for Halifax.

As for Moncton, congratulations on landing 3 outstanding sporting events...

1. World Junior Track and Field
2. 1'st ever CFL regular season neutral site game
3. The Uteck Bowl

Also the arrival of this new stadium and the Uteck Bowl will no doubt lead to a revival of at least 1 AUS football program in New Brunswick which would be great.

Moncton is on the map in a big way and Halifax is left looking even more irrelevant.

Sorry about the rant people but this is all a bit frustrating.

[reddog794]

So we have a councilor that now has publicly supported a 20-25k stadium, there is an underground urban-geek (spade is a spade) primordial soup. Some fantastic, realistic renderings, with my only question being, is there a way fenwick to calculate the structural area, and work out at least how much concrete would be required, as well as steel supports and cantilevers? Then we can gauge the cost a little better. Not accurately, but at least a loose figure on what you've designed.

Does Ms. Uteck check this board, and if so, how can we get this information to her, as she is obviously one of the tails wagging the dog. This Moncton Uteck Bowl could be a blessing in disguise. It makes good ammo for those who do want proper sports and entertainment infrastructure.

Just the steam coming out of my ears.

[Empire]

Kelly Scorecard:

Commonwealth Games 0
Uteck Bowl 0
Concerts & Sport Infrastructure 0
Positive Business Environment 0
Positive Development Culture 0

The goal now is to have a 25k seat stadium built in three years. In 2016 Halifax should field a CFL team and reclaim the Uteck Bowl.
Hopefully Sue Uteck reads this thread.