Canadian Urban Canyons

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

It's a certain kind of hip. There's stuff like the Fringe Festival and the local theatre/music/art scenes are fairly strong within a Canadian context but this isn't really apparent unless you live there or know enough people who do. It's different than in Halifax (and Van/Vic from what I gather) where hipsterism basically is the dominant culture these days.

I guess I was thinking more generally about how conventionally or conservatively people seem to live.

For example I tend to see that gay couples I know in Alberta (Calgary or Edmonton) tend to follow the more standard white picket fence lifestyle while in Portland you run into the vegan wiccan poly nudist collectives (not necessarily superior).

[megadude]

Let's talk about the human element. I did some walking around Chicago, I took both the el train and the commuter train, I walked around the DT of one of the suburbs, I fished one lake in town or right on the city limits, went to Cubs, Sox and Blackhawks games and took a bus tour. Obviously I spoke to people during each experience and those experiences were way closer to TO than NY, including Queens.

In those 12 days in NY, I saw a cunty lady on the subway on the way to the Mets game in Queens in addition to cunty people at the UPS store, Chrylser Building observation deck (the mgr.), several drivers, Subway restaurant in Nassau county and a dude calling a cabbie a terrorist and threatening to blow him up instead of the other way around.

In CHI, I didn't witness a single unpleasant act.

Even when it came down to the people in the financial district, I felt like Wall Street workers weren't that far off from what I see in the movies. I listened to a conversation by these two bankers on the subway in front of me. I overheard these I-banking guys walking ahead of me on their way to play ball after work. It was a level of industry talk I only hear DT TO on the streets or train on the odd occasion, and I've been working in the financial district since 2007. I came into the Chicago central station on the commuter train from the burbs one day and walked around the core and that felt more like TO to me.

Edit: Funny enough, the last two financial convos I heard on the street walking to work, both in the past few months, were guys from NY.

Now, to be specific, Queens was the subject instead of NYC as a whole and I admitted I hadn't spent enough time in Queens to make fair enough judgement so I threw in the Manhattan aspect because Manhattan is often what's thought of when comparing NY to TO. Just my two cents.


And if you read my post again, I said I felt Chicago was more similar to TO than Queens, for me. Notice I didn't say it was a close match, but if I'm comparing CHI vs NYC then I'm picking Chicago.

And like I said, as can be discerned from my other posts around the forum, geography is weighted higher for me than a lot of other criteria. When I was out and about in NY, no matter what borough, I passed by the ocean and beaches. I passed by the Hudson and East Rivers, which have shipping traffic. There are sailboats everywhere, in all the nooks and crannies of NY's coastline. CHI and TO, both with a smooth coastline compared to NY, and that's where the ships and sailboats are, not all over the place. Though TO does have the islands as well.

I haven't been to either city outside of summer, but I picture the weather in CHI closer to Toronto's in the rest of the seasons.

I'll also add that pedestrians don't wait for the lights in Manhattan and it's the only city I know like that. So many aggressive drivers all over NY and in NJ across the Hudson too. Did you notice the many, many bumper guards on cars in NY? I've never noticed it anywhere else. I had to buy one when I was there. I witnessed two cars squeeze into places they didn't belong while parallel parking and literally bumping the other cars.

So many experiences in NY that make it too different for me.

I'll even throw in the airports. LGA and JFK, both in Queens, are right on the water. ORD and MDW are well inland, just like YYZ.


Basically, CHI people made it feel more like TO than anywhere in NY.


Edit: I'll also add to the geography aspect that you don't cross massive bridges or tunnels to get into and out of TO and CHI like you do in NY. Like has been said on here before, MTL also has some serious NYC vibes, especially if you think geographically.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by megadude

Basically, CHI people made it feel more like TO than anywhere in NY.

Let's agree to disagree, I guess. Though I just find it utterly bizarre that you would say that people in Chicago are anything like the people in Toronto, because it's almost an objective truth that Chicagoans are nothing like people in Toronto (or Canada, for that matter--not that New Yorkers are like people in Toronto either). The vibe, the ethos, the background, the social history, you name it, they're just completely different.

I'm speaking in broad generalities, while you seem to be talking about anecdotal experiences. We're not on the same wavelength.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Let's agree to disagree, I guess. Though I just find it utterly bizarre that you would say that people in Chicago are anything like the people in Toronto, because it's almost an objective truth that Chicagoans are nothing like people in Toronto (or Canada, for that matter--not that New Yorkers are like people in Toronto either). The vibe, the ethos, the background, the social history, you name it, they're just completely different.

I'm speaking in broad generalities, while you seem to be talking about anecdotal experiences. We're not on the same wavelength.

I agree. Anyone that has ever been to Chicago knows that Chitown has a massive black population and this group has had a major impact on its culture. There is also a massive Mexican American population in Chicago and there has been for a while. Together, African AMericans and Hispanics make up more than half of the entire cities population. Most Black folks in Toronto live in the suburbs and are of recent immigrant background. That is not the case in Chicago. How anyone can say the vibe of the city similar is beyond me. The similarities are the towers and the lake thats it, thats where it stops.

[softee]

IMO the only U.S. city that "feels" anything like Toronto while walking through its neighbourhoods is NYC. Both are the #1 city of their country and are international financial, media and immigration hubs with a similar mix of people from all over the world and they both have lots of vibrant neighbourhood commercial strips with tightly packed shops and diverse, multi-cultural restaurant options that go above and beyond that of other cities in either country. They are the two most heavily used transit systems in the U.S. and Canada and are #1 and #2 for having the most hi-rise buildings in North America. NYC is just 3X the population and 2X the density of Toronto.

[MonkeyRonin]

New York is the only city in the US that has that same sort of global polyglot immigrant thing going on that Toronto has (Los Angeles does too, but it's got a distinctly Mexican character that Toronto lacks). Culturally, it feels the most familiar to me.

Though the city itself as a built environment is very, very different.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by softee

IMO the only U.S. city that "feels" anything like Toronto while walking through its neighbourhoods is NYC. Both are the #1 city of their country and are international financial, media and immigration hubs with a similar mix of people from all over the world and they both have lots of vibrant neighbourhood commercial strips with tightly packed shops and diverse, multi-cultural restaurant options that go above and beyond that of other cities in either country. They are the two most heavily used transit systems in the U.S. and Canada and are #1 and #2 for having the most hi-rise buildings in North America. NYC is just 3X the population and 2X the density of Toronto.

I don't think NYC and Toronto feel similar.

In terms of demographics, NYC is way more Hispanic & Black. Toronto is way more Asia-Pacific (i.e., East Asians (e.g., Chinese), South Asians (e.g., Indians), Southeast Asians (e.g., Filipinos). That's like one of the most striking differences when you land in NYC -- the large Hispanic & Black populations.

Sticking with demographics, the multigenerational White populations in both cities are pretty different culturally and attitudinally. People in Toronto generally seem more like a mix of British politeness and Midwestern niceness / down-to-earthness.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I don't think NYC and Toronto feel similar.

In terms of demographics, NYC is way more Hispanic & Black. Toronto is way more Asia-Pacific (i.e., East Asians (e.g., Chinese), South Asians (e.g., Indians), Southeast Asians (e.g., Filipinos). That's like one of the most striking differences when you land in NYC -- the large Hispanic & Black populations.

Sticking with demographics, the multigenerational White populations in both cities are pretty different culturally and attitudinally. People in Toronto generally seem more like a mix of British politeness and Midwestern niceness / down-to-earthness.

Your last paragraph was exactly my point the last time we had this discussion.

[TorontoDrew]

Amazing View Toronto by Serega Vilkun, on Flickr

[GeneralLea]

The building this last photo is taken from is an unfortunate example of terrible facademy….but it could've been an uglier building.

Lovey Halifax photo I must say....many would be gobsmacked to have thought of this as Halifax ten or twenty years ago.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I don't think NYC and Toronto feel similar.

In terms of demographics, NYC is way more Hispanic & Black. Toronto is way more Asia-Pacific (i.e., East Asians (e.g., Chinese), South Asians (e.g., Indians), Southeast Asians (e.g., Filipinos). That's like one of the most striking differences when you land in NYC -- the large Hispanic & Black populations.

Sticking with demographics, the multigenerational White populations in both cities are pretty different culturally and attitudinally. People in Toronto generally seem more like a mix of British politeness and Midwestern niceness / down-to-earthness.

Another thing to add regarding the people, which popped up into my mind this morning, is that New Yorkers in Manhattan don't generally wait for the light to cross. As long as they think the coast is clear, they're crossing. And I get it. There are lights every block it seems and it would take forever to anywhere if they always waited.

Here in TO, when I'm walking from Union to work, people are not only waiting for the light, they are waiting for the little walking mine to show up. That 1-2 second in between the light turning red and the walking man show up will have like 4/5 people at the light still waiting even though they walk this route all the time and know there's no advance. While 1/5 will start walking as soon as it turns red.

Now I'm comparing the CBD of TO Manhattan outside of Wall Street. Didn't spend a heck of a lot of time down there.

Anyway, in Chicago, I don't recall people jaywalking non stop everywhere.

New Yorkers to me are on a whole other level than people anywhere else. So therefore, TO and CHI people would be closer in personality and attitude than NY and TO.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by megadude

Anyway, in Chicago, I don't recall people jaywalking non stop everywhere.

New Yorkers to me are on a whole other level than people anywhere else. So therefore, TO and CHI people would be closer in personality and attitude than NY and TO.

People in Chicago are not very similar to people in Toronto at all. Just stop already.

Two seconds of Googling:

• Video Link

0:17 -- "A midwest stereotype that I heard before I came here was that, the Midwest, everyone here is super nice, super friendly, everybody that you see says good morning, hi to you a million times a day..."

<cue exaggerated hand waving in video>

Midwestern Americans are gregariously outgoing, friendly and nice. Torontonians are reserved, polite and nice. The lack of jaywalking in Chicago and Toronto when compared to New York doesn't logically mean that people in Chicago and Toronto are all that similar. Because if that's the case, you might as well say that chimpanzees and crocodiles are similar in that, unlike birds, they don't fly.

[rousseau]

You keep on saying this:

Originally Posted by megadude

TO and CHI people would be closer in personality and attitude than NY and TO.

And I keep on saying that this is a meaningless statement. Who cares if people in Toronto and Chicago both jaywalk less than New Yorkers when, in virtually every other metric, people in Toronto and Chicago are so different from each other?

You keep on suggesting that Torontonians and Chicagoans are "closer to each other in personality and attitude" because of the lack of jaywalking. I keep on pointing out that this is a logical fallacy with no basis in reality.

Sorry for being so argumentative. It's a slow work day today.

[Nouvellecosse]

What exactly is so terrible about "hipsters"? I can't say I have much affinity for the aesthetic, but I also can't see how they're anything particularly harmful. People who are angry, hateful and filled with contempt for anyone different from themselves seem like a much bigger threat to society.

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

What exactly is so terrible about "hipsters"? I can't say I have much affinity for the aesthetic, but I also can't see how they're anything particularly harmful. People who are angry, hateful and filled with contempt for anyone different from themselves seem like a much bigger threat to society.

This.

[megadude]

Okay people seem to be missing the point of statements from I and Isaido. I said if I'm choosing between NY and CHI, then I'll go with CHI over NY when comparing to TO. At no point was I inferring they are great matches.

As for the people, again, never said the people are close matches. Simply said due to their friendliness I experienced and the aggressiveness and rudeness of New Yorkers, I picked Chicago's people to be closer to TO's than New York's.

Isaido, for instance, said TO most closely mimics Melbourne, not "closely mimics", as he pointed out. Context is important here.

TO is like no other city anywhere as far as I'm concerned. The list of big cities that are close matches has to be pretty small, IMO. We can make loose comparisons, which is something I find interesting, but it's very hard to make close matches across a range of criteria.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by megadude

Okay people seem to be missing the point of statements from I and Isaido. I said if I'm choosing between NY and CHI, then I'll go with CHI over NY when comparing to TO. At no point was I inferring they are great matches.

The point is that it's a meaningless choice because neither New York or Chicago resemble Toronto in any way, except perhaps for parts of Queens.

Originally Posted by megadude

TO is like no other city anywhere as far as I'm concerned.

Now you're getting it.

[zahav]

I never thought of Edmonton as the hipster capital of Canada, ever. It certainly is more hipster than Calgary but I never thought of it as the most hipster place in Canada

[Chadillaccc]

That would be because it isn't.


I don't know about Montreal, but I'd definitely put Montreal and Vancouver in a category of hipster unparalleled elsewhere in Canada, maybe the world (along with Portland).

[canucklehead2]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

That would be because it isn't.


I don't know about Montreal, but I'd definitely put Montreal and Vancouver in a category of hipster unparalleled elsewhere in Canada, maybe the world (along with Portland).

Says a Calgarian. Believe me it is almost annoyingly so. Thank you U of A, MacEwan and NAIT for being a magnet for progressives of all stripes...