Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity - Page 63

Acajack · #**1241** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 9:22 PM**

If we're being honest, that generic "shrug" reaction is also probably what international bodies would have to say about Bill 21 if ever it were brought before them.

Unless of course they get infested by the pro-religion activist crowd. Which at this point in human history probably isn't outside the realm of possibility, it's true.

(I'd actually expect Bill 21 to end up at the UN at some point, in all honesty.)

dleung · #**1242** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 9:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Whereas I find it appropriate and positive that Canadians take interest in the welfare of their fellow citizens, wherever they happen to reside.

Quite certain that if the people of BC or Ontario "democratically" approve a bill to curtail the freedoms of their Francophone minorities, the "outsiders shouldn't comment" angle by the usual suspects is going to go away pretty fast, at least until the next time they need to invoke it lol

Acajack · #**1243** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 9:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by dleung

Quite certain that if the people of BC or Ontario "democratically" approve a bill to curtail the freedoms of their Francophone minorities, the "outsiders shouldn't comment" angle by the usual suspects is going to go away pretty fast, at least until the next time they need to invoke it lol

They don't need to as the 9 provinces outside Quebec already did that at various points in the late 1800s and during the 20th century.

With the possible exception of New Brunswick, none of the francophone communities outside Quebec will ever come back to the vitality they once had, at least inasmuch as where they would again become a serious "rival" to the majority anywhere at all in these provinces.

dleung · #**1244** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 9:32 PM**

A lot of shit happened in the 19th and 20th centuries lol, including head taxes, internment camps, residential schools. We're talking about today. Are provinces just a bunch of different countries when it comes to human rights?

Hali87 · #**1245** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 9:48 PM**

The thing is that it's not a separate country, and the people who feel oppressed or grievously inconvenienced by Quebec's decisions have access to 9 other provinces that are very vocal about handling most of these things very differently.

dleung · #**1246** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 9:53 PM**

And the defenders of this bill are also quite clear on their position with respect to government handouts. Should a province that repeatedly drives away talent, and suffers economically as a result, get handouts?

A similar situation is playing out in the US with respect to reproductive rights and voter suppression. Anyone can just pack up and move! It's that easy! Those without the means will be left behind and will suffer even more for it, but whatevs!

Acajack · #**1247** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 9:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hali87

The thing is that it's not a separate country, and the people who feel oppressed or grievously inconvenienced by Quebec's decisions have access to 9 other provinces that are very vocal about handling most of these things very differently.

Yes, Canada is big enough to allow for a slight variance in how one specific religious freedom plays out, from 95% in one place to 99% in another, and for certain provinces to throw public cash at Catholic schools and deny that same cash to other religions.

None of this means that we have Iran on one side of the Ottawa River, and Cambridge, Mass. on the other.

Hali87 · #**1248** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 9:57 PM**

It also attracts talent that none of the other provinces would otherwise

What counts as a handout? At the end of the day, all provinces get handouts.

Acajack · #**1249** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hali87

It also attracts talent that none of the other provinces would otherwise

.

Yes, this meme some have going on that somehow highly religious people have outsized levels of productivity is really weird.

Hali87 · #**1250** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by dleung

A similar situation is playing out in the US with respect to reproductive rights and voter suppression. Anyone can just pack up and move! It's that easy! Those without the means will be left behind and will suffer even more for it, but whatevs!

Beyond the idea that states/provinces should or should not be allowed to have different policies from one another, I don't think this is very similar at all.

dleung · #**1251** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:05 PM**

It's similar in the apparent notion that people can "just move" if unfairly targeted for oppression in one state/province

theman23 · #**1252** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

With the possible exception of New Brunswick, none of the francophone communities outside Quebec will ever come back to the vitality they once had, at least inasmuch as where they would again become a serious "rival" to the majority anywhere at all in these provinces.

saffronleaf · #**1253** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by dleung

A lot of shit happened in the 19th and 20th centuries lol, including head taxes, internment camps, residential schools. We're talking about today. Are provinces just a bunch of different countries when it comes to human rights?

And yet Anglo-American liberals have an endless reservoir of empathy for those historically oppressed groups and try to do everything to right old wrongs and make it easier for them and give them advantages and privileges, except for Quebecois.

theman23 · #**1254** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

And yet Anglo-American liberals have an endless reservoir of empathy for those historically oppressed groups and try to do everything to right old wrongs and make it easier for them and give them advantages and privileges, except for Quebecois.

Actually, as far as minority rights go the Quebecois (along with the indigenous) have long been a favored class.

Hali87 · #**1255** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:09 PM**

And in Canada's case, most of these people legitimately could move. Was it a problem for the ROC when half of Newfoundland's population "had to" move to Alberta?

Truenorth00 · #**1256** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hali87

And in Canada's case, most of these people legitimately could move. Was it a problem for the ROC when half of Newfoundland's population "had to" move to Alberta?

I was told I was hating on Quebec when I suggested the feds offer up relocation assistance to religious minorities who want out of Quebec after this legislation. Given the notwithstanding clause, this seems the most logical compromise to me.

Acajack · #**1257** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by theman23

Actually, as far as minority rights go the Quebecois (along with the indigenous) have long been a favored class.

Yeah, francophones were actually lucky to have been mostly concentrated in one large province as opposed to having their 25% or so being spread out all across the country more evenly.

Acajack · #**1258** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by theman23

Actually, as far as minority rights go the Quebecois (along with the indigenous) have long been a favored class.

I'd actually disagree quite strongly that Indigenous people have been a favoured class at any point in Canada's history. Including now.

I admit that in recent years we've made a number of attempts to improve things for Indigenous people to make them benefit from Canada as much as the rest of us, but so far they've been hit and miss, and it's true that some of the efforts have appeared to be awkward and nonsensical.

Not sure any of this makes the more favoured at this point.

theman23 · #**1259** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, francophones were actually lucky to have been mostly concentrated in one large province as opposed to having their 25% or so being spread out all across the country more evenly.

Modern liberalism and wokeism has probably developed over the last twenty or thirty years, so I’m not sure it’s worth bringing up phenomenon from over a hundred years ago when discussing modern Anglo “Americans” (saffron’s words). In our lifetime are you denying that French Canadians have advantages and privileges that other minorities lack?

Hali87 · #**1260** Posted **Dec 17, 2021, 10:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I was told I was hating on Quebec when I suggested the feds offer up relocation assistance to religious minorities who want out of Quebec after this legislation. Given the notwithstanding clause, this seems the most logical compromise to me.

That seems fair and a good solution in a lot of ways but I think due to the optics it wouldn't turn out well in practice.

What would make more sense to me is for the other provinces to offer incentives/assistance to people who would like to relocate from Quebec. For example Nova Scotia has a shortage of doctors and nurses - we could be recruiting from Quebec more actively with the promise that they can wear a hijab to work and speak as much English as they want. As far as I know we're not doing that.