The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Good for Calgary. They deserve a bit of good news ever since, you know.

But why are there no interchanges between the green line and the other lines?

The stations will not be far apart at all. With proof of payment there is no need for a sterile connection - one might be built whenever a second downtown subway is built for the red line.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The stations will not be far apart at all. With proof of payment there is no need for a sterile connection - one might be built whenever a second downtown subway is built for the red line.

Yeah but I doubt most commuters are going to be particularly impressed by exiting through turnstiles and walking a few hundred metres to get back on another LRT. This is sort of like the Vancouver Waterfront situation, although at least that is all indoors.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Yeah but I doubt most commuters are going to be particularly impressed by exiting through turnstiles and walking a few hundred metres to get back on another LRT. This is sort of like the Vancouver Waterfront situation, although at least that is all indoors.

No turnstiles in Calgary - there never have been, and would be nearly impossible to implement on most of the stations. The number of transfers isn't going to be huge for in downtown travel - the walks in downtown Calgary aren't huge, and the surface train downtown isn't the most fast.

The transfers are pretty short, and if the city really wanted to, they could move one of the west bound stations a block west to make it even shorter - it would cost maybe $5, $10 million to do so, if the old bay parkade is brougth down (which is planned/proposed by its owners for a office tower (not that it is likely in the near term):

[Chadillaccc]

Once the Red Line Subway is built under 8th Avenue, there will be an underground transfer point between 2 Street Station/Bankers Hall Station (Red Line) and 7 Avenue Station (Green Line).

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

No turnstiles in Calgary - there never have been, and would be nearly impossible to implement on most of the stations. The number of transfers isn't going to be huge for in downtown travel - the walks in downtown Calgary aren't huge, and the surface train downtown isn't the most fast.

The transfers are pretty short, and if the city really wanted to, they could move one of the west bound stations a block west to make it even shorter - it would cost maybe $5, $10 million to do so, if the old bay parkade is brougth down (which is planned/proposed by its owners for a office tower (not that it is likely in the near term):

Still.. that's not a very convenient or user-friendly transfer between the green line and westbound surface. Even the transfer from green to eastbound kinda sucks.. you still have to cross a street. This is a far cry from the transfers in Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, or soon Ottawa, where they are indoor and in many cases a simple 20-30m walk across a platform or a single stairway.

Out of curiosity, why is the 8th Ave subway plan only for the red line? Wouldn't it make more sense to move both lines into the tunnel?

[youngregina]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Still.. that's not a very convenient or user-friendly transfer between the green line and westbound surface. Even the transfer from green to eastbound kinda sucks.. you still have to cross a street. This is a far cry from the transfers in Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, or soon Ottawa, where they are indoor and in many cases a simple 20-30m walk across a platform or a single stairway.

Out of curiosity, why is the 8th Ave subway plan only for the red line? Wouldn't it make more sense to move both lines into the tunnel?

On your point about transfers, it makes sense for the few that will cross the street from Green to the on-street Blue line in the future, as there won't be nearly as many as there are on the Green/Red transfer (mainly due to the locations the red line serves, such as the University, Chinook, Southcentre, McMahon, Foothills and Downtown of course.

As per moving only the Red line underground, it is because of the aforementioned trip-generating areas on the line that make it so important for it have increased capacity and reduced headways. The blue line on it's own will take quite some time to grow into itself once it has all the space on 7th Ave. The Red line, however, will most likely be expanded to accommodate 5-6 car trains and have platforms built much longer underground than what we currently have. I see the potential for the Red line, once underground, to reach capacity fairly quickly.

All stations on the Red line have room for expansion, except Lions Park and ACAD/Jubilee, but with North-hill mall redevelopment, I see the potential to bury both those stations, or to have one large underground station spanning 14th St to service both areas.

[MalcolmTucker]

Most people coming in on the green line from the se will be saving at least 20 minutes compared to their current trips. Probably a lot more. They can walk across the street.

Not everything has to be an idealized form that works within the established paradigms of how transit in other cities is set up. The city already cut off a lot of distance from the line to stay within the probable $4.something billion budget, to add speed by way of longer tunnels and more exclusive ROW.

The transfer penalty is far reduced in Calgary because both the lines bisect the CBD. There isn’t a forced transfer for a huge group like there is in Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver where the lines intersect or the periphery of the cbd instead of at the centre of it. Even with a short underground sterile transfer for most people walking would be faster than making even the most convenient of transfers - Calgary’s downtown is really compact that way.

Thinking that everything needs to be in its idealized form is one of the reasons transit is so bloody expensive to build out in Toronto- even to buses a sterile transfer is the name of the game. I bet half of one of the transit city lines could have been built for the cost of all the underused bus facilities on the new Vaughn extension.

Calgary has built a system to maximize coverage not to maximize convenience with a minimum coverage. Calgary could have built 100% covered stations like Edmonton, it could have built underground in the CBD like Edmonton, it could have built turnstiles like Edmonton but instead built out way more rail. Because of the success in serving more people sooner Calgary was able to forge a pro transit political culture that spans political allegiances and supported continual growth while other Canadian cities were waiting for their next opportunity.

[J.OT13]

For the Calgary Green Line, I think building a proper transfer station around Victoria Park. Plenty of space to do it. As for the downtown, it would be great if they approached the Blue and Red Line platforms to the Green Line; passengers could get off the green line and use the surface Blue/Red to travel across downtown. Of course, I understand the financial restraint.

For Green Line's 7th Avenue Station, is it set in stone that it will only have one entrance in the median, or are they considering sidewalk or integrated entrances?

[milomilo]

The entrance won't be in a median, that's just how the diagram is drawn - there is no median there. The green line station is underground, design work is ongoing so we don't know what it will look like yet, but I would think it sensible to have entrances either side.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

For the Calgary Green Line, I think building a proper transfer station around Victoria Park. Plenty of space to do it. As for the downtown, it would be great if they approached the Blue and Red Line platforms to the Green Line; passengers could get off the green line and use the surface Blue/Red to travel across downtown. Of course, I understand the financial restraint.

For Green Line's 7th Avenue Station, is it set in stone that it will only have one entrance in the median, or are they considering sidewalk or integrated entrances?

I don't think there would be much support for a transfer station in Victoria Park - Calgary's philosophy as of late has been to reduce the footprint of stations as much as possible - eliminating stairs and elevators. Quite frankly, people transferring in Victoria Park would be met with full trains, instead of trains that have already unloaded a big % of their users downtown. Not even considering the costs - is saving people a minute worth $200 million buckaroos?

Integrated entrances would be possible, but on the east side of that station head are an office proposal that is stale, with the basement only originally built in the 80s, and to the westside, a second tower in our Brookfield Place to replace the parkade on the site. I bet knock out panels will be put in place.

There is also an exit further north.

Preliminary designs:

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The entrance won't be in a median, that's just how the diagram is drawn - there is no median there. The green line station is underground, design work is ongoing so we don't know what it will look like yet, but I would think it sensible to have entrances either side.

Considering the E/W Blue and Red Lines, it would be ideal to have entrances on each corner.

What's the timeline for final design, contract award and construction start?

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Most people coming in on the green line from the se will be saving at least 20 minutes compared to their current trips. Probably a lot more. They can walk across the street.

Not everything has to be an idealized form that works within the established paradigms of how transit in other cities is set up. The city already cut off a lot of distance from the line to stay within the probable $4.something billion budget, to add speed by way of longer tunnels and more exclusive ROW.

The transfer penalty is far reduced in Calgary because both the lines bisect the CBD. There isn’t a forced transfer for a huge group like there is in Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver where the lines intersect or the periphery of the cbd instead of at the centre of it. Even with a short underground sterile transfer for most people walking would be faster than making even the most convenient of transfers - Calgary’s downtown is really compact that way.

Thinking that everything needs to be in its idealized form is one of the reasons transit is so bloody expensive to build out in Toronto- even to buses a sterile transfer is the name of the game. I bet half of one of the transit city lines could have been built for the cost of all the underused bus facilities on the new Vaughn extension.

Calgary has built a system to maximize coverage not to maximize convenience with a minimum coverage. Calgary could have built 100% covered stations like Edmonton, it could have built underground in the CBD like Edmonton, it could have built turnstiles like Edmonton but instead built out way more rail. Because of the success in serving more people sooner Calgary was able to forge a pro transit political culture that spans political allegiances and supported continual growth while other Canadian cities were waiting for their next opportunity.

I've read my share of research on transfer points and having people walk and cross streets is less than ideal. The multi platform subway stations in Toronto are an amazing asset even if they aren't all at capacity. The majority of the costs relate to additional room to build isn't a big comparable expense to building an underground line. Developers will buy the unused air rights. You're really the first to say effortless transfers are a wasted expenditure. That said, transfers between subway and surface routes in downtown Toronto aren't as direct either.

Calgary existing rapid transit system is primarily focused on commuters traveling from the suburbs to the downtown which is fine but, there's plenty of room for improvement in providing maximum coverage for all transit usage.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Considering the E/W Blue and Red Lines, it would be ideal to have entrances on each corner.

What's the timeline for final design, contract award and construction start?

On the north side of seventh, that is likely and easy, the street passing the station head will likely be closed to cars. On the south side, you run into geology problems pretty fast - there is a big sand deposit there - one of the reasons the stations was shifted north and deeper to begin with.

The station box if it is built to something like this design:



will provide future opportunities for the buildings adjacent to it on the south side of 7th to connect.

Calgary buildings typically do not have retail concourses below ground level (a few have facilities of some sort, but not many), unlike Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa, so integrating station entrances is perhaps a bigger to do. Like what happened in Ottawa, you don't want to commit to doing so as then when it comes time to allocate costs, the property owners want to cover none of them, not even their own costs.

[Doug]

Would it not make sense to rough in a Red Line tunnel or station at the point where the Green Line crosses over/under?

[milomilo]

You would think. I'm not sure they care much about the red line tunnel any more though.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by milomilo

You would think. I'm not sure they care much about the red line tunnel any more though.

It's still mentioned by the transportation department any time the issue of transit construction timelines come up. I'll try and find the most recent info...

[milomilo]

I suspect we'll have to wait for Calgary's economy to get back on track and the Red Line trains be totally full before it becomes a priority. I pray when the time comes they do it right and completely eliminate grade crossings for the red line downtown.

[Chadillaccc]

That's what "subway" means.

[WhipperSnapper]

Best intentions. Calgary has been adept in turning transit visions to reality. It is the Red line subway if there is one proposed plan that can fall by the wayside. It will be very expensive and adding new kilometres is always favoured over upgrading existing kilometres.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Best intentions. Calgary has been adept in turning transit visions to reality. It is the Red line subway if there is one proposed plan that can fall by the wayside. It will be very expensive and adding new kilometres is always favoured over upgrading existing kilometres.

Yeah I know what you mean, but the fact that they are still talking about it is a good sign.