Wonderland Road Widening 4 to 6 lanes

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I agree with this but I do think we should have a large arterial 'ring' road around the city now that a freeway can't happen. If you 6-lane Wonderland, Fanshawe and Highbury (or widen Clarke to 4 lanes to the VMP connection) - you essentially get this.

All other widening within this 'ring' (or box?) should be for BRT only.

I don't think making arterial roads into 6 lanes is a good solution because you create an environment where cars drive even faster than they already do and you have an even worse environment for pedestrians and cyclists. If it's a freeway, it has to be a real freeway meaning no cyclists, pedestrians, etc. and it has to have interchanges, be divided, etc. It could be done inside or outside the city if there was political will to do it, but we can't even do easy things in this city let alone build a freeway.

[haljackey]

Yep its all true. The previous generation dealt us a shitty hand in terms of London's transportation infrastructure. If we continue to bluff (do nothing) it's going to make London a loser.

I mean, what else can we do? If 6-laning any road is not an option anymore, London is doomed to choke in traffic. Freeways are not an option anymore. Most other road widening / new roads will be heavily protested or blocked on climate change grounds. Transit / rapid transit and cycling improvements can only be made in certain areas of the city (with max benefit anyway).

I sure hope this WFH thing continues post-pandemic so I don't have to worry about commuting. Regardless of your mode of transport, it's goona suck in the coming years (except for the BRT routes once operational). Run your errands on like a Tuesday evening because roads like Wonderland are still choking hazards on the weekends. I'll only have to fight that when I want to visit friends/family thankfully.

[haljackey]

Not Just Bikes Video on the Wonderland widening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds-v2-qyCc8

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Not Just Bikes Video on the Wonderland widening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds-v2-qyCc8

• Video Link

Just helping out with the direct viewer...

[mooseman]

the places you mentioned are in no way similar to London. Copenhagen for example has an Oceanic climate, its winters therefore do not get anywhere near as cold as London and their summers are not even close to resembling the tropical humidity we get. London's urban area is 420km squared while Copenhagen's is 179km squared. They are able to cycle year round in relative comfort, and the distances between destinations are shorter. I've spent many months in Denmark and The Netherlands and i fell in love with the cycling culture. In Amsterdam, about one third of all commutes are done by bike. London is simply too sprawled out and the climate isn't suitable for year-round cycling. Londoners aren't going to be swapping out their cars for bikes because the thought of cycling home after a long day at work in the freezing rain isn't very appealing. We need better cycling infrastructure and better transit, but it would be a mistake to shelve road widenings in favor of those alternatives. Its too difficult to throw away the comfort of a personal automobile.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by mooseman

the places you mentioned are in no way similar to London. Copenhagen for example has an Oceanic climate, its winters therefore do not get anywhere near as cold as London and their summers are not even close to resembling the tropical humidity we get. London's urban area is 420km squared while Copenhagen's is 179km squared. They are able to cycle year round in relative comfort, and the distances between destinations are shorter. I've spent many months in Denmark and The Netherlands and i fell in love with the cycling culture. In Amsterdam, about one third of all commutes are done by bike. London is simply too sprawled out and the climate isn't suitable for year-round cycling. Londoners aren't going to be swapping out their cars for bikes because the thought of cycling home after a long day at work in the freezing rain isn't very appealing. We need better cycling infrastructure and better transit, but it would be a mistake to shelve road widenings in favor of those alternatives. Its too difficult to throw away the comfort of a personal automobile.

Not Just Bikes literally made a video addressing all the points you make in this post. And he uses a Finnish town with about the same population density as London, ON for comparison.

• Video Link

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by mooseman

Londoners aren't going to be swapping out their cars for bikes because the thought of cycling home after a long day at work in the freezing rain isn't very appealing.

I know Londoners who have already done this - literally got rid of their car and only have bikes. I know the London of today is not great for cycling but by taking money from road widenings and making safe cycling lanes and better transit, it will change people's options for transportation and it will push developers to build better residential.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not Just Bikes literally made a video addressing all the points you make in this post. And he uses a Finnish town with about the same population density as London, ON for comparison.

Great video, I had not seen it before.

It makes sense that winter biking is not much of a concern, the concern is the lack of good & safe bike routes on all major road and inadequate clearing in the winter.

Wonderland in particular is not safe for a bike in the summer for many sections and would be a death wish in the winter.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MrSlippery519

Wonderland in particular is not safe for a bike in the summer for many sections and would be a death wish in the winter.

The point here is that if $200 million is going to be spent on Wonderland, spend it on bus lanes and better bike paths and sidewalks. Putting in more lanes, only to fill them up and take a huge hit on maintenance down the road is a bad idea.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

I know Londoners who have already done this - literally got rid of their car and only have bikes. I know the London of today is not great for cycling but by taking money from road widenings and making safe cycling lanes and better transit, it will change people's options for transportation and it will push developers to build better residential.

I think we all know people that exclusively bike. I just don't think that even with the best possible bike path system that enough people would switch to bikes from cars to make any noticeable different in traffic. I think the vast majority of regular cyclists do so because they don't/can't afford a car, don't have a license, or live close to where they work or go to school. I know many people that bike to work in the warmer season and switch back to cars in the bad weather.

[haljackey]

Woke up to this (my alarm is CBC radio) - Not Just Bikes' youtube channel owner was interviewed by London Morning about his vid about Wonderland Road widening

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-1...ip/15875017-is-north-america-car-centric

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Woke up to this (my alarm is CBC radio) - Not Just Bikes' youtube channel owner was interviewed by London Morning about his vid about Wonderland Road widening

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-1...ip/15875017-is-north-america-car-centric

Great interview, hope some on council heard it.

[Truenorth00]

What's always been crazy to me about this project is that this $200M project was going to be one of the largest infrastructure projects in the city's history. Not building a network of bus lanes or bike paths. Not beautification of half of downtown streets (as was done on Dundas). Nope. A single 8 km road widening project was going to be the signature infrastructure project of the decade. And this was not stopped because people's attitudes have changed and they understood how insane spending $200+M on a single road widening project for a city of 400k, is. Nope, it was stopped because of supposed concerns over climate change. So 10-15 years from now, when car sales are all electric, this shitty idea will be back on the menu, at an even higher price tag.

[Pimpmasterdac]

While the cost is high the expansion is huge in scale of the infrastructure assets being improved; widening the Wonderland Thames bridge, new CN underpass, and CP overpass expansion. For perspective the cost of Wharncliffe/CN underpass rebuild is costing $40+M, adding 3 river/rail crossings plus 8km of of road widening & active transportation for $200M is reasonable.

Cost is all relative, London could've got an in city 402 route with crossing 3 rail lines, 2 Thames crossings and 10 interchanges for several million in the 1970s. Now you couldn't even build 1 interchange for the same cost.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

While the cost is high the expansion is huge in scale of the infrastructure assets being improved; widening the Wonderland Thames bridge, new CN underpass, and CP overpass expansion. For perspective the cost of Wharncliffe/CN underpass rebuild is costing $40+M, adding 3 river/rail crossings plus 8km of of road widening & active transportation for $200M is reasonable.

I'm not questioning the cost of the proposed work. I'm questioning the return on investment.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm not questioning the cost of the proposed work. I'm questioning the return on investment.

Which is hard to measure since it's not a business investment. It would be one of those intangibles that whatever narrative someone wants to spin would be easy to say.

[Pimpmasterdac]

The ROI would be less congestion and having a continuous 6 lane north-south road though the west in of the city. There's nothing else being proposed that will use those funds, and with infrastructure Inflation as you mentioned costs will be much higher in 15-20 years.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

The ROI would be less congestion and having a continuous 6 lane north-south road though the west in of the city. There's nothing else being proposed that will use those funds, and with infrastructure Inflation as you mentioned costs will be much higher in 15-20 years.

Induced demand would mean back to congestion in a few years. If adding more lanes solved anything, there'd be no traffic anywhere.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Which is hard to measure since it's not a business investment. It would be one of those intangibles that whatever narrative someone wants to spin would be easy to say.

It's actually not that hard to measure. They can project how much development they get, how much maintenance costs increase, etc. They can actually work out what the net effect would be. And some of this modeling was obviously done. How else would they know about how much emissions increased as a result of the widening?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Induced demand would mean back to congestion in a few years. If adding more lanes solved anything, there'd be no traffic anywhere.

The demand is there and growing whether the road is widened or not. The population isn't going down. Make Wonderland one lane each way isn't going to reduce demand. And since there are only a few ways across the river and 2 rail corridors, it's not like there are a multitude of other routes for people to take.