Wonderland Road Widening 4 to 6 lanes

[CanadianTalk]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I agree, but the possibility of that is rapidly closing. Myself and others have suggested in the past that Westdel Bourne be extended north to at least Gainsborough (Fanshawe ideally), and connected to the 402 in the south for starters, 401 ultimately. Issues of course would be ennvironmental going north across the river, which also leaves city territory. Which could be resolved with moving the city boundary about a mile west, north of the river. Not to mention that Westdel is rapidly being developed, and I think anything similar to VMP is out of the question now.

I can't see any other possible corridor in the west end. I don't see any way to run Hyde Park south to Colonel Talbot, for example, which is one suggestion I have seen online previously. Probably by people who don't look at maps. Maybe we can take over the Hunt Club, connect Colonel Talbot to Boler diagonally northwest from Pack Rd, and join up to Gainsborough lol

I remember reading (this must have been years ago) that the city designated land as a transportation corridor approximately halfway between Westdel Bourne and Woodhull Road for a VMP-like roadway (possibly a 4 lane freeway).

Does anyone know if the city still has this land designated or if the plans have since been long gone?

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by CanadianTalk

I remember reading (this must have been years ago) that the city designated land as a transportation corridor approximately halfway between Westdel Bourne and Woodhull Road for a VMP-like roadway (possibly a 4 lane freeway).

Does anyone know if the city still has this land designated or if the plans have since been long gone?

I definitely remember that too, I am sure they did not designate the land to build this as they don't like to do hard things.

[Djeffery]

I don't recall that myself, but that doesn't mean anything. The westward crawl of that neighbourhood from Westdel is rapidly closing that gap off too though, and similarly to what I said above, the city limit doesn't extend north of the river.

I'd be interested to see what that corridor is, if it exists. I could see it being part of Vanneck Rd, then veering away to the east as it cross south of Gainsborough, going to the east of that Old River Rd neighbourhood, crossing the river and skirting the west side of that new subdivision mentioned above. There is also a decent size subdivision of multi-million dollar homes in the triangle between Woodhull, Gideon and Glendon, as well as the Plunkett Estate to the south of that, to thread through. Not to mention the other "rich folks" homes extending south of Elviage east of Woodhull. I doubt there is the political will to take those people on.

[CanadianTalk]

City council has officially suspended the EA for the widening of Wonderland Road, tonight.

Article from London Free Press:
https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/lond...d-road-widening-citing-climate-emergency

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by CanadianTalk

City council officially suspended the EA for the widening of Wonderland Road, tonight.

Article from London Free Press:
https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/lond...d-road-widening-citing-climate-emergency

It's good news but they have to actually do something with that money that is allotted to expanding the road. London's traffic is bad and it was a good decision "not" to widen Wonderland, but you can't do nothing. Spend that money on making major transit upgrades and active lifestyle options.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

It's good news but they have to actually do something with that money that is allotted to expanding the road. London's traffic is bad and it was a good decision "not" to widen Wonderland, but you can't do nothing. Spend that money on making major transit upgrades and active lifestyle options.

Looks like they supported a motion to look into other ways to improve Wonderland, so 'do nothing' likely isn't the option. Let's get some dual lefts and more right turn lanes on the thing where the extra through lanes were planned. Maybe we can block some business access too to make it less of a 'stroad' (where there's access on cross-streets), but I bet there will be lots of backlash from the owners.

All and all a acceptable outcome. That cost would likely balloon over time and the construction would cause years of headaches.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Looks like they supported a motion to look into other ways to improve Wonderland, so 'do nothing' likely isn't the option. Let's get some dual lefts and more right turn lanes on the thing where the extra through lanes were planned. Maybe we can block some business access too to make it less of a 'stroad' (where there's access on cross-streets), but I bet there will be lots of backlash from the owners.

All and all a acceptable outcome. That cost would likely balloon over time and the construction would cause years of headaches.

This 100%, Wonderland needs flow improvements, dual lefts on a number of intersections and adding right turn lanes alone would be a huge step in the right direction. The volume is a problem, but driving it daily its not just the amount of vehicles it is more that those vehicles often cannot get to where they need to go soon enough which just adds more backlog in the 2 lanes.

Better bike access would also be a great addition.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Isn't your solution kind of a half step to what was proposed? How about use the money to build a best cycle/pedestrian path in Canada? The current Wonderland Road cycle lanes were built decades ago and have not been maintained at all. I cycle down Wonderland and have to be on the road, which is scary.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Isn't your solution kind of a half step to what was proposed? How about use the money to build a best cycle/pedestrian path in Canada? The current Wonderland Road cycle lanes were built decades ago and have not been maintained at all. I cycle down Wonderland and have to be on the road, which is scary.

Yes it's a compromise. If we're not widening, we need to make make the two 'thru' lanes each way operate more efficiently. That can be done by blocking some accesses and adding turn lanes where appropriate.

That will cost far less money and be far less disruptive vs 6 lane widening. The funds saved can be allocated to improving pedestrian, cycling and transit infrastructure on Wonderland and/or elsewhere.

I think the term is called 'optimization'- using what we have as best as possible.

[Pimpmasterdac]

This was an Ill conceived decision by a foolish council that rather indulge a vocal minority of people worried about a "climate emergency" like they actually have any influence in the grand scheme of this. Widening Wonderland Rd wouldn't have made any difference from a climate perspective. It would've significantly helped the flow of traffic, as Wonderland crossed all 3 of the major barriers that separate London (CN, CP rail lines & the Thames) along an existing corridor.

I agree that Wonderland does need more optimization with fewer entries to businesses and private residences. However London is infamous for a having a useless do-nothing council that likes to have studies, on how studies should be studied. This was a great time to make a huge impact on transportation and this council shit the bed just like they shat the bed on our abortion of a BRT!

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Isn't your solution kind of a half step to what was proposed? How about use the money to build a best cycle/pedestrian path in Canada? The current Wonderland Road cycle lanes were built decades ago and have not been maintained at all. I cycle down Wonderland and have to be on the road, which is scary.

I'm not a cyclist, but as this discussion came up over the last couple weeks, I have paid more attention to where the bike lanes are, and I was shocked at how shitty those things are. Sunken and heaved pavement with weeds growing up through it and encroaching on the sides. Even if they do nothing else on Wonderland, they should replace those, it will help traffic in itself by removing more bikes from the road.

[MolsonExport]

The Wonderland bike 'lane' is a travesty. Cracked, potholed, debris-strewn, up-and-dies here, there, and nearly everywhere. Hasn't been resurfaced since Abe Lincoln was President. An endless stream of Foul-150 Trucks passing within 1 foot of your handlebars.

[tyeman200]

I hope they think of widening roads like Bradley East of Wellington to the Veterans, Or Southdale West of Wonderland.

I also think a main issue with traffic in London is the people driving. It doesn't help when people drive under the limit, or side by side, or leaving 10 car spaces in front of them, or cutting through lanes last minute, etc. It's like people here just get in their car and start driving with no thought to where they need to go until its too late. If people learned how to use the proper lanes and keep with the flow of traffic, or just drive in general, traffic would flow much better.

We could look at what places like Montreal, QC are doing. They have a lot of one way roads, and far better synced traffic lights. There, you can't just turn right on reds, they have separate signals for that. They have separate signals for pedestrians (IE they all walk across at the same time) and for bikes. Way more bikers and bike lanes, you need to be watching constantly. But it all makes sense. Besides the highways and freeways, the downtown core does run pretty smooth. I was there for 5 days and never had any real traffic stoppage besides for the major highways.

[mooseman]

Reading the replies to the news of council shelving this project is disappointing. There are so many delusional people that are screaming for more bike lanes (which I agree with), but trying to reshape the roads and our lifestyles to imitate what works in Amsterdam or Copenhagen is never going to happen. Our climate is too extreme to foster a bicycle commuter revolution. Our winters are too cold and summers are too hot and humid. Moreover, our city is too sprawled out to entice cycling as a viable commuter conveyance. Picture yourself cycling from Bostwick to the Airport industrial park for example. London needs a "best of both worlds" whereby our main roads are upgraded to alleviate rush hour congestion while creating a proper RT system and viable bicycle routes. BRT is its own issue IMHO, although I believe it will be a failure based on the Downtown Loop upgrades that took place on King Street this year. Buses will be stuck behind one another at "stations" while stopping every 200m for red lights. Improving our roads should be number one priority. There is no debate. 46,000 cars use our main thoroughfares, while a negligible amount of cyclists make use of bike lanes along these roads. If council is using a self imposed "climate emergency" to shut down road improvements (which is counter-intuitive to allow more gridlock instead of free-flowing traffic), then they are therefore bound by their own logic to re-consider projects like converting VMP to a full expressway with interchanges as this would allow cars and commercial traffic to travel efficiently instead of stopping and re-accelerating back to highway speed which emits considerably more emissions). The City of London has been victim of lame politicians for too long. Our senior gov'ts are handing out blank checks for transportation projects, but we as a city still are confused about our own reality. We need a brave mayor that can actually handle the work involved in fighting for approval of transportation projects, instead of letting them die.

[Pimpmasterdac]

^^^ 100% mooseman. City council is filled with people who would rather London be a small backwater than ever grow into full city with well though out and implemented transportation system. Whether its in-city freeways, a full BRT/LRT system, or logical road widening or extensions, London never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

[inimrepus]

Originally Posted by mooseman

negligible amount of cyclists make use of bike lanes along these roads.

Probably because most of our bike lanes aren't separated from traffic making them extremely dangerous to use and because we will have a road with bike lanes, but no roads leading to or from there that also have bike lanes.

Just like a road in the middle of nowhere will have no traffic, bike lanes with no safe way to get to them won't have any traffic either

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

London never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Don't you know the city's song?

"London the city of (missed) opportunity!"

-----

Just to clarify, I am a supporter of the widening, but I do understand the various reasons why it didn't go through. Citing the climate emergency to me seems like a sneaky way of dismissing it. The years of construction and cost overruns seems to be the main driver in my mind.

Council did pass a motion to look at other ways to improve Wonderland and while not as transformative as 6 laning, are cheaper and more realistic. I support this too.

Wonderland widening may be a major topic come the next election cycle so check your council candidate's stance on this and other transportation infrastructure projects. London's growing out and up at the same time and we're doomed to choke if improvements aren't made. I'm still hopeful Wonderland widening will be revisited, (along with the 2 cancelled BRT routes and other projects).

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by mooseman

Our climate is too extreme to foster a bicycle commuter revolution. Our winters are too cold and summers are too hot and humid. Moreover, our city is too sprawled out to entice cycling as a viable commuter conveyance. Picture yourself cycling from Bostwick to the Airport industrial park for example.

Our climate is too extreme is a pretty lame excuse not to build an incredible bike network. Have you been to Copenhagen or Finland? They are doing it there & people cycle because they have infrastructure which makes cyclists feel safe. And yep, they get lots of snow but they buy equipment to plow for cyclists and pedestrians.

With regards to cycling from Bostwick to the Airport, is that a typical commute you see happening? Do you think you might be using a bit extreme example? I know several people who use bikes as their only mode of transportation already. My guess is if they worked near the airport, they wouldn't choose to live on Bostwick b/c they aren't stupid.

I will agree that London should have build a proper freeway system many years ago when we had the chance, but that ship has sailed and we should now build the best public transit system that we can and discourage the use of cars by providing better options. We can't turn every arterial road into a mini-freeway with 6 lanes. Nope, don't want that. So you have to wait in traffic for 15 minutes during rush hour. No problem.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

We can't turn every arterial road into a mini-freeway with 6 lanes. Nope, don't want that. So you have to wait in traffic for 15 minutes during rush hour. No problem.

I agree with this but I do think we should have a large arterial 'ring' road around the city now that a freeway can't happen. If you 6-lane Wonderland, Fanshawe and Highbury (or widen Clarke to 4 lanes to the VMP connection) - you essentially get this.

All other widening within this 'ring' (or box?) should be for BRT only.

[Djeffery]

Funny enough, I know 2 guys who, at least in the non winter months, ride their bikes from west London to the airport industrial park for work. Not quite Bostwick, but Belmont Dr is where they both live. I know another guy from the same workplace that also rode in from Hyde Park, except he didn't have a car so he did it year round for years. At least until his marriage broke up and he ended up getting an apartment near Trafalgar and VMP.