What is the least "WASP" city in the United States?

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

my paternal side is mainly irish.

my maternal side is mainly german.

which one am i supposed to pick?

actually, on the census form when they asked about ethnicity, i checked "other" and wrote in "chicagoan" because at a certain point, reality has to set in.

my family has been farting around chicagoland for many generations now. this european nonsense is mostly nonsense for most of us.

A second cousin on my dad's side is religiously into ancestry and has been able to trace that side of the family back to when they first arrived in Cincinnati from Bavaria in the late 1860s. On my mother's side, I'm third generation American. My great grandmother and her husband came to the United States around 1928 and she lived until I was 15 years old. While she was alive, we had a lot of relatives from Northwest Germany come visit us and we went to stuff like Schutzenfest and participated in whatever the Kolping Society in Cincinnati was doing in the early to mid 1990s.

Personally though, I'm a little weird about German nationalism and ancestry. Bad things happen when we start taking pride (well, too much pride...) in our roots, but I've come to accept and adopt the stereotypical "humorless efficiency" element of my Deutschland brethren.

[KennyDubz]

Originally Posted by pj3000

^ Lots of salmon shorts

Duck Heads? Gap? or JCrew?

Sock free Top Siders aka "boat shoes" using East Coast vernacular with polo shirts (made by Polo with the horse emblem stitched on). Must wear with long goofy hair Blagojevich style.

[Acajack]

Interesting chatter about the Scots-Irish and Protestant Irish in the U.S.

Not to make this about Canada too much, but I think that up here Protestant people from (Northern) Ireland for some reason were more likely to refer to themselves as simply Scottish. Or maybe even in British in some cases.

If you look at most historical figures in Canada that came from places like Belfast they don't seem to have played up their Irishness.

And I think that that probably trickled down into the community. Irish and Protestant isn't something that springs to mind for most Canadians, though of course we also know that that exists. But it's not the stereotype at all.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Interesting chatter about the Scots-Irish and Protestant Irish in the U.S.

Not to make this about Canada too much, but I think that up here Protestant people from (Northern) Ireland for some reason were more likely to refer to themselves as simply Scottish. Or maybe even in British in some cases.

If you look at most historical figures in Canada that came from places like Belfast they don't seem to have played up their Irishness.

And I think that that probably trickled down into the community. Irish and Protestant isn't something that springs to mind for most Canadians, though of course we also know that that exists. But it's not the stereotype at all.

I think the same pretty much holds true in the US -- the Scots-Irish often just referring to themselves as Scottish, given their ancestry to Scotland.

This being the case in present day... it wasn't the case around the turn of the century when the wild, drunk Irish Catholics were swarming the cities, and the early arrivals wanted to distinguish themselves as superior WASPs to their Celt cousins.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Yes, I know Boston is way more Irish than NYC. What I want to know is if holding on to their Irish heritage is important for a lot of multi-generational Irish-Americans that live in the Greater NYC area. Do they make a big deal out of St. Patrick's Day? Do they plan on naming their children Irish names? Do they have relatives in Ireland?

Also, you mentioned Jewish, but what about Italian? It isn't NYC without bagels AND pizzas.

The NY region has a very large Irish-American (to distinguish from Irish immigrant) population too, but mostly suburbanized or on the far fringes of the city proper. It's an important community, but nowadays less so than the Italian and Jewish communities. The Irish dominated the Transit Authority ranks till the 1970's, and a number of mid-century NYC mayors were Irish.

The "three Is": Ireland, Italy and Israel, were the required intl. visits for NYC mayors until relatively recently. But Irish and Italians are pretty heavily suburbanized and, as Catholic whites, probably have high intermarriage rates. Some suburbs are stereotyped as white ethnic mixes, such as Massepequa, on Long Island, which is referred to as MatzoPizza.

[Quixote]

^ It's actually shocking how suburbanized the Italian and especially Irish populations have become:


Manhattan
Italian -- 6.1% (100K)
Irish -- 6.9% (113K)

Brooklyn
Italian -- 5.1% (134K)
Irish -- 3.3% (87K)

Queens
Italian -- 5.5% (127K)
Irish -- 3.8% (89K)

The Bronx
Italian -- 3.1% (44K)
Irish -- 2.1% (30K)

Staten Island
Italian -- 31% (147K)
Irish -- 12.2% (58K)

NYC
Italian -- 6.5% (552K)
Irish -- 4.4% (377K)


I would have expected a greater presence of "working middle class" (cops, firefighters, general contractors) in all the outer boroughs minus Staten Island, but I guess there are too many immigrants for comfort. As far as ethnic group rankings, Italian is tied with Chinese and well behind Jewish, Puerto Rican, and Dominican; and there are slightly more Irish than Mexican (340K), which one typically doesn't associate with NYC.

[Docere]

First ancestry:

Northeast

Italian 10.8%
British/American 10.4%
Irish 9.9%
German/Swiss 8.7%


Midwest

German/Swiss 20.1%
British/American 12.8%
Irish 6.8%


South

British/American 17.9%
German/Swiss 7.1%
Irish 5.9%


West

British/American 11.4%
German/Swiss 8.3%
Irish 4.9%

[Docere]

The difference between the Irish/Italian Catholic Northeast, German Midwest and Anglo-Saxon South is quite clear in the regional data.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Quixote

I would have expected a greater presence of "working middle class" (cops, firefighters, general contractors) in all the outer boroughs minus Staten Island, but I guess there are too many immigrants for comfort. As far as ethnic group rankings, Italian is tied with Chinese and well behind Jewish, Puerto Rican, and Dominican; and there are slightly more Irish than Mexican (340K), which one typically doesn't associate with NYC.

NYC doesn't have residency requirements for city workers, so the white ethnic "cop/ firefighter/teacher neighborhoods" you see in other major U.S. cities are in the suburbs. South Shore of Long Island, Rockland County, NY and some parts of North Jersey. The South Shore of LI, especially, is famed for being white ethnic GC and city worker land, and you really notice it on the Babylon line of the LIRR. Burly construction dudes and lunchpail guys, few suits.

And, yeah, I'm actually surprised the Irish still outnumber the Mexicans in the city proper. The Mexican presence is more overt, probably because they're concentrated along major transit routes and commercial corridors, while the Irish are on the furthest fringes.

There were giant Irish populations in Upper Manhattan and the West Bronx until the 1980's. Places like Highbridge, Bronx and Inwood, Manhattan. Those neighborhoods are now mostly Dominican (or gentrified if in Manhattan), though you see hints of the former community (still plenty of Irish old man bars, lots of Catholic churches/schools, and schools/parks/community centers named after famous Irish).

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I think the same pretty much holds true in the US -- the Scots-Irish often just referring to themselves as Scottish, given their ancestry to Scotland.

This being the case in present day... it wasn't the case around the turn of the century when the wild, drunk Irish Catholics were swarming the cities, and the early arrivals wanted to distinguish themselves as superior WASPs to their Celt cousins.

i think this is what happened. although 300+ years is a long time for a group in north america, and i noticed that there was more of a scots-irish tendency to consider the eastern seaboard state your family became established in (before parts of the family moved west) to be a family “origin” story much like irish catholics talk about parts of ireland. they seemed to intentionally wipe clean ties with the old world which i think explains the confusion (while intermarrying with other german and french protestant groups in the case of my family). although i did have a relative that apparently moved back and forth between the east coast and london a few times for unknown reasons.

[Urbanguy]

I'd say that Honolulu is not very WASPy -- in fact the only people with some European ancestry that even makes the top 10 is Spaniard/Spanish. Prior to that people of Portuguese ancestry were the dominate European group (most are mixed now).

From the 2019 American Community Survey (US Census): *These are of people that aren't mixed with some other ethnic or ancestral group except for the Latino ethnic groups which can be of any race.

1 Filipino alone 154,450
2 Japanese alone 142,234
3 Native Hawaiian alone 53,987
4 Chinese except Taiwanese alone 48,234
5 Mexican 31,845
6 Puerto Rican 28,298
7 Spaniard or Spanish 26,346
8 Black or African American alone 25,241
9 Korean alone 22,590
10 Samoan alone 13,902 *Huge undercount for sure

[Crawford]

I have a friend who went to Punahou School in Honolulu. I remember the yearbook showed a pretty WASPy environment, but that's likely unrepresentative.

[Urbanguy]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I have a friend who went to Punahou School in Honolulu. I remember the yearbook showed a pretty WASPy environment, but that's likely unrepresentative.

Punahou is sort of Ivy League by Hawaii standards -- the public schools are a lot more representative of the actual make-up of the city.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Urbanguy

I'd say that Honolulu is not very WASPy -- in fact the only people with some European ancestry that even makes the top 10 is Spaniard/Spanish. Prior to that people of Portuguese ancestry were the dominate European group (most are mixed now).

From the 2019 American Community Survey (US Census): *These are of people that aren't mixed with some other ethnic or ancestral group except for the Latino ethnic groups which can be of any race.

1 Filipino alone 154,450
2 Japanese alone 142,234
3 Native Hawaiian alone 53,987
4 Chinese except Taiwanese alone 48,234
5 Mexican 31,845
6 Puerto Rican 28,298
7 Spaniard or Spanish 26,346
8 Black or African American alone 25,241
9 Korean alone 22,590
10 Samoan alone 13,902 *Huge undercount for sure

I'm totally surprised that there are that many Mexican and Puerto Rican residents of Honolulu.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Crawford

NYC doesn't have residency requirements for city workers, so the white ethnic "cop/ firefighter/teacher neighborhoods" you see in other major U.S. cities are in the suburbs. South Shore of Long Island, Rockland County, NY and some parts of North Jersey. The South Shore of LI, especially, is famed for being white ethnic GC and city worker land, and you really notice it on the Babylon line of the LIRR. Burly construction dudes and lunchpail guys, few suits.

And, yeah, I'm actually surprised the Irish still outnumber the Mexicans in the city proper. The Mexican presence is more overt, probably because they're concentrated along major transit routes and commercial corridors, while the Irish are on the furthest fringes.

There were giant Irish populations in Upper Manhattan and the West Bronx until the 1980's. Places like Highbridge, Bronx and Inwood, Manhattan. Those neighborhoods are now mostly Dominican (or gentrified if in Manhattan), though you see hints of the former community (still plenty of Irish old man bars, lots of Catholic churches/schools, and schools/parks/community centers named after famous Irish).

Thanks for this, and I figured as much. For what it's worth though, Philadelphia and Boston -- the other two cities with large Italian-American concentrations -- are only 7.6% and 8.1%, respectively. In that context, NYC still being 6.5% Italian is actually quite impressive (even if it's largely thanks to Staten Island) when considering it absolutely dwarfs the other two cities in population. I just was expecting it to be comfortably #4 behind Jewish, Puerto Rican, and Dominican.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by Quixote

^ It's actually shocking how suburbanized the Italian and especially Irish populations have become:


Manhattan
Italian -- 6.1% (100K)
Irish -- 6.9% (113K)

Brooklyn
Italian -- 5.1% (134K)
Irish -- 3.3% (87K)

Queens
Italian -- 5.5% (127K)
Irish -- 3.8% (89K)

The Bronx
Italian -- 3.1% (44K)
Irish -- 2.1% (30K)

Staten Island
Italian -- 31% (147K)
Irish -- 12.2% (58K)

NYC
Italian -- 6.5% (552K)
Irish -- 4.4% (377K)


I would have expected a greater presence of "working middle class" (cops, firefighters, general contractors) in all the outer boroughs minus Staten Island, but I guess there are too many immigrants for comfort. As far as ethnic group rankings, Italian is tied with Chinese and well behind Jewish, Puerto Rican, and Dominican; and there are slightly more Irish than Mexican (340K), which one typically doesn't associate with NYC.

Yeah, I've mentioned before in other threads that the major white ethnic presence I get in NYC has been usually Jews and Italians. I haven't encountered the Irish American folks in Queens or Brooklyn. I've seen Irish pubs in Manhattan but nothing else within the city.

These days, and for as long as I can remember, New York's demographics has mainly been a mixture of Chinese, Haitian, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Orthodox Jewish, Italians, African American, Russian, Arab, Indian, and a few other groups.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Yeah, I've mentioned before in other threads that the major white ethnic presence I get in NYC has been usually Jews and Italians. I haven't encountered the Irish American folks in Queens or Brooklyn. I've seen Irish pubs in Manhattan but nothing else within the city.

These days, and for as long as I can remember, New York's demographics has mainly been a mixture of Chinese, Haitian, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Orthodox Jewish, Italians, African American, Russian, Arab, Indian, and a few other groups.

There are/were a quite a few old school Irish bars in Astoria. Many may have closed as the area gentrified in recent years, but a decade ago there seemed to be one every couple of blocks on the avenues (36th Ave, 34th Ave, Broadway).

[Crawford]

Re. NYC Irish, for those familar with the Bronx, the Norwood/Bedford Park area was still really Irish when I first moved to NYC in 2001. This was especially true around the 205th Street D station, where there were Irish delis, groceries and taverns. It was called Little Belfast and there were actually IRA operatives in the 1980's and 1990's. There were local high profile cases re. weapons and cash sent to IRA operations.

Nowadays, Norwood is really polyglot, and has barely any traces of Irish presence. It has a Queens-like mix of Asians and Latinos, with no predominant group. Really that whole West Bronx Irish corridor has evaporated except for a few bars.

But there's still a really vibrant Irish presence about a mile north, on the Bronx-Yonkers border, around Woodlawn Ave. and McLean Ave. That neighborhood is as strong as ever.

[Centropolis]

i remember a cluster of old irish dives at the northern tip of manhattan practically (or actually) within site of the bronx. i’m guessing they are long gone. i have some holga shots of them and the neighborhood as it was in the mid 00s somewhere.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i remember a cluster of old irish dives at the northern tip of manhattan practically (or actually) within site of the bronx. i’m guessing they are long gone. i have some holga shots of them and the neighborhood as it was in the mid 00s somewhere.

That's Inwood. There are still a few Irish dive bars there, even today.

The furthest reaches of Upper Manhattan were predominately Irish till the 1980's. Now gentrified west of Broadway, and Dominican east of Broadway.