Canada's 50 Tallest Proposals

[ericmacm]

Glad to see that Alldritt Tower is still alive and still very much gigantic. I think this new massing design is much better and will age better. It sort of reminds me of Hudson Tower, which is currently under construction in Detroit.

Just parroting points from SkyriseEdmonton, the tower has 250 hotel units and less than 700 residential units. It's unclear what the breakdown will be, but considering that SKY Residences (the condos on top of Stantec Tower) sold poorly, I wouldn't be surprised to see rentals in the mix for this one.

It's hard to tell if this will make it through given the current circumstances, between the one-two punch of oilpatch economics and COVID. The project is already technically approved and the zoning just needs to be revised for the new design. My guess is that the project will be alright if both the recession and COVID don't extend into next year.

[Black Star]

Originally Posted by koops65

I made a new drawing of Aldritt:

http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=112424

Edmonton diagram: http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=88819898

Thanks...looks great.

[Black Star]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

Glad to see that Alldritt Tower is still alive and still very much gigantic. I think this new massing design is much better and will age better. It sort of reminds me of Hudson Tower, which is currently under construction in Detroit.

Just parroting points from SkyriseEdmonton, the tower has 250 hotel units and less than 700 residential units. It's unclear what the breakdown will be, but considering that SKY Residences (the condos on top of Stantec Tower) sold poorly, I wouldn't be surprised to see rentals in the mix for this one.

It's hard to tell if this will make it through given the current circumstances, between the one-two punch of oilpatch economics and COVID. The project is already technically approved and the zoning just needs to be revised for the new design. My guess is that the project will be alright if both the recession and COVID don't extend into next year.

100% agree with your summation on this.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Spocket

Can you explain the rationale behind this tower? I mean, as a proposal, it's several years old. As for timing...couldn't possibly be worse. I know it was a serious proposal of sorts but despite staying active in our news, what exactly are they waiting for if they're still pushing it ahead despite the lack positive prospects?

This is the first news about it in 3 years. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

This is the first news about it in 3 years. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Actually no.

Happenings in the background and locally for sure, but a bit of dramatics and other things.

[WhipperSnapper]

I don't quite get the appeal of a 280 metre residential tower at this location. There's no surrounding context and there's no market for an exceptional quality that anything so far above context demands. The previous design was grossly undignified. This one looks like it goes to far in the other direction. Bulky and drab.

It's just a new massing model. The tower was approved 3 years ago now. They were adamant to have a sales centre built by summer after all sorts of nothing. It's being reassigned as vision if that doesn't happen.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I don't quite get the appeal of a 280 metre residential tower at this location. There's no surrounding context and there's no market for an exceptional quality that anything so far above context demands. The previous design was grossly undignified. This one looks like it goes to far in the other direction. Bulky and drab.

It's just a new massing model. The tower was approved 3 years ago now. They were adamant to have a sales centre built by summer after all sorts of nothing. It's being reassigned as vision if that doesn't happen.

Especially in this economy....I doubt it's going to happen.

[Coldrsx]

There is a desire to get this built by the owner, but the market realities are such that it will be difficult to achieve this in the near-term.

That said, the Edmonton Convention Centre would like to have more small-scale space and more importantly an attached hotel.

[WhipperSnapper]

Half the Toronto proposals and the majority of the proposals that have been pulled off this list over the years are/have been zoning exercises. I still imagine the desire to see these built were present in each one. Desire amounts to unicorns and rainbows. The latter is all that matters.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Half the Toronto proposals and the majority of the proposals that have been pulled off this list over the years are/have been zoning exercises. I still imagine the desire to see these built were present in each one. Desire amounts to unicorns and rainbows. The latter is all that matters.

I have a desire to soar through the sky using nothing but my arms, but it's not going to happen.

This tower was highly unlikely before the outbreak, with the hit hotels and Canadian real estate are taking from Covid and the lasting impacts, I'd say this one will remain a massing model and planning exercise for the forseeable future.

The owner may continue to try to get entitlements to improve the value of the land, but there is zero economic rationale for building this tower today or 10 years from now.

[WhipperSnapper]

I'd love to see your theories on the impact of telecommuting now that "Bay Street" has resigned to telecommuting and teleconferencing as well as the impact on companies that require raising capital to stay afloat? In other words, is this the end of the office boom in Toronto and throughout the rest of Canada?

[LeftCoaster]

Definitely going to hit absorption. It's not the end of office expansion by any means, but I know first hand many established users of space are reevaluating their space needs given the "success" of telecommuting.

Older more traditional users, mining, finance etc... who would never have thought of this type of work from home were forced into an experiment and for the most part it has gone well. I'd expect to see these users slow expansion and give space back on lease renewal.

The good news is the biggest expanding tenants in the TMV office markets prior to the outbreak were TAMI users. These users are generally not bound by convention and have already experimented with non-traditional working setups and largely settled on their ideal set up before the "great Covid experiment" so I expect these users to continue to drive office expansion going froward, there will just be more re-purposed space from the above mentioned users for them to absorb, rather than pure new construction.

[travis3000]

At least we have the CIBC Square twins and 160 Front moving ahead. Could be the last two big office towers to be built in Canada. I was already skeptical of The Hub, Union Centre, and CC3.... now with this COVID nightmare and the changes it has brought with it.... I doubt they will ever be built.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Definitely going to hit absorption. It's not the end of office expansion by any means, but I know first hand many established users of space are reevaluating their space needs given the "success" of telecommuting.

Older more traditional users, mining, finance etc... who would never have thought of this type of work from home were forced into an experiment and for the most part it has gone well. I'd expect to see these users slow expansion and give space back on lease renewal.

The good news is the biggest expanding tenants in the TMV office markets prior to the outbreak were TAMI users. These users are generally not bound by convention and have already experimented with non-traditional working setups and largely settled on their ideal set up before the "great Covid experiment" so I expect these users to continue to drive office expansion going froward, there will just be more re-purposed space from the above mentioned users for them to absorb, rather than pure new construction.

Many thanks for your response. It's something that has come up in conversation but, most of us originate from traditional users. It is nice to get perspective from someone with a broader sense.

[suburbanite]

I'll add that I work indirectly with public groups (one being probably the largest public user of office space in downtown Toronto) who were already asking whether they could operate at 150 sf/ person instead of the traditional 200+. This all but seals the deal that they will do that if not 125sf/person or less once they consider the amount of third-party consultants that they typically on-board within their portfolio.

These aren't the names that would anchor a large shiny new tower, but they add to the overall absorption equation.

[Innsertnamehere]

We may see more of a push to reduce office space needs by a higher adoption of floating desks and 3-4 day in the office work weeks. Putting most staff on 4 day in the office work weeks and modernizing your spaces to have a smaller overall employee footprint by nature of not having assigned desks means you can cut a lot of space.

Most modern office spaces can easily achieve 150sf / employee even without floating desks and work from home, and that is with half decent work spaces still. Just limit the amount of private offices as much as possible.

Layer on another 20% reduction from 4 day work weeks, and you get 120sf / employee.


Important to note that space per employee has been trending downwards for a long time now. Work from home may just push it even lower.

[WhipperSnapper]

The shift to paperless allowed many groups to drastically reduce their square footage among the big 5. You were expected up until this coronavirus to be physically present for every meating, shake hands and whatnot. These dinosaurs adapting to 2020 technology and allowing people to teleconference is such a small thing but will have the biggest impact on the choice of employees

Poor CIBC. Their big move to become relevant among the other 4 could be outdated before it is even finished

[urbandreamer]

So short Allied and Smart Centres?

[WhipperSnapper]

Not sure what that means.


To be clear, I don't think we're at the point where these major leaseholders won't revert back to pre virus conditions. Same time, we are a long way from defeating this virus. It will also take an entire office space refresh cycle to complete any shift towards encouraging telecommuting.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

So short Allied and Smart Centres?

Allied is a pioneer in the type of product that I expect to continue to flourish after Coronavirus. The aforementioned TAMI companies have already been living in a watered down version of this experiment for the past decade, and they still have an insatiable appetite for Allied space in King West. The market could probably absorb a dozen projects like King Portland Centre if the supply was there.

Their growth prospects have definitely taken a hit with projects like Union Centre likely shelved, but I don't see them in anywhere close to as precarious a situation as someone like RioCan.