[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

This project would need to be co-funded by the Feds under the guise of necessary infrastructure for Regional/hub/capital cities.

Enter at Seawall behind train station.

The federal government seems to like funding such projects.

Where is this picture taken - what subway line? (it looks a bit like the Philadelphia regional line, however I am sure that there are numerous ones that look similar across North America).

[MonctonRad]

Not to rain on your parade, but boring through bedrock would be expensive, especially for a city the size of Halifax. At present, the smallest Canadian city with a subway is Edmonton at 1.1M people. I still would favour a surface LRT/streetcar system for the downtown core and commuter rail to reach the downtown from the suburbs.

re: the Nova Centre; I view this project as an absolute must for the city. There will soon be significant regional competition for the mid-sized convention market with both Frederiction and Charlottetown building major new convention facilities. Halifax needs to ramp up it's infrastructure to attract bigger conventions to the region. This is how Halifax would maintain it's competitiveness, while at the same time not damaging the new facilities in Fredericton and Charlottetown.

I firmly believe that there is untapped potential out there in the major convention market. The Maritimes are well recognized as a popular tourism destination. If Halifax were able to enter the major convention market, I'm sure that it would rapidly become a popular convention destination for those organizations that were previously unable to come here.

Just look at how the cruise ship industry has exploded in the region (Halifax and Saint John in particular). Who would have predicted that? With all of Halifax's attributes, I am convinced that a major convention centre would be successful.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not to rain on your parade, but boring through bedrock would be expensive, especially for a city the size of Halifax.

The entire line would not have to be subway - parts could be above ground. It might actually be cheaper in some areas to go underground - for example no one would approve a surface LRT through the Commons or through the Citadel whereas a subway could go under both if it makes sense. Likewise with the downtown, a 2 Km tunnel would likely be sufficient under downtown Halifax and then you have true rapid transit without disturbing the street traffic. Another consideration are the hills in Halifax - a subway would result in gentler slope for the LRT.

A 1 Km tunnel was bored under downtown Halifax for the Harbour Solutions which I think is large enough for people to walk through (I think I read about Mayor Kelly going down into the tunnel to promote the Harbour Solutions project - is this right?).

[JustinMacD]

Originally Posted by Empire

The message Peter Kelly sent to the world when he killed the Commonwealth Games (in a back room) is that we are a town that isn’t willing to work hard enough to cease an opportunity that could provide huge dividends for the community. If we have no faith in our own abilities then everything becomes a hard sell to the outside investment community. I haven’t seen many editorials lauding Kelly’s fiscal wisdom or how his decision has proven to be a bonus for taxpayers. For years to come it will be very difficult to attract a sporting event of that magnitude. If the Trade Centre is killed, the same message will be sent once again. We have gone 20 years with virtually no growth in spite of significant potential. The Trade Centre enhances the “Financial Centre” theme that Rodney MacDonald was trying to promote. Millions of taxpayers $$ have been spent on plants and businesses in Nova Scotia that have not panned out. That doesn’t mean we should give up. The only way to break the dependence on federal transfer payments is to work harder to attract investment and that is not done by sitting back and waiting for a solution to come calling or by rejecting big opportunities.

What Halifax is missing:
- Stadium
- Large conference centre
- Light rail
- Subway line - Robie, Barrington/ Gottingen, Quinpool, Spring Garden (30 years from now/ and yes you can bore through bedrock)
- Performing Arts Centre (Waterfront)
- True heritage district
- Select sites for tall office towers downtown
- Bike lanes
- Aquarium (should be built at BIO)
- National scale marine museum (Ottawa funding)
- Better use of transit (more transit hubs with downtown shuttles)
- Water taxis
- Access to McNab's – low impact Stanley Park type urban use
- Forward thinking administration

Could you imagine a beautiful Opera House/Performing Arts Centre/Ballet Centre on the waterfront? The Opera House in Sydney, Australia is an iconic structure. Something like that, of course on a much smaller scale, would be incredible. Even the STV crew probably would approve something like that because it'd be so classy.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The entire line would not have to be subway - parts could be above ground. It might actually be cheaper in some areas to go underground - for example no one would approve a surface LRT through the Commons or through the Citadel whereas a subway could go under both if it makes sense. Likewise with the downtown, a 2 Km tunnel would likely be sufficient under downtown Halifax and then you have true rapid transit without disturbing the street traffic. Another consideration are the hills in Halifax - a subway would result in gentler slope for the LRT.

A 1 Km tunnel was bored under downtown Halifax for the Harbour Solutions which I think is large enough for people to walk through (I think I read about Mayor Kelly going down into the tunnel to promote the Harbour Solutions project - is this right?).

The 1km tunnel was ~8.0ft in diameter. In the 1800's they bored through the Rockies for the CPR. Yes it would be expensive but if you were to tunnel through sand, silt, loam etc. you would have additional structural issues. The 1km water treatment tunnel was lined with concrete making it a 8.0ft dia pipe. Because the peninsula is so limited for transportation space some innovative measures will be needed in the future in spite of a population much smaller than Edmonton.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The federal government seems to like funding such projects.

Where is this picture taken - what subway line? (it looks a bit like the Philadelphia regional line, however I am sure that there are numerous ones that look similar across North America).

New Jersey, not sure what line.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Empire

Because the peninsula is so limited for transportation space some innovative measures will be needed in the future in spite of a population much smaller than Edmonton.

Actually Edmonton's population was approximately 400,000 when they started planning for the LRT. In 1974 construction began and the population was 445,000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_Light_Rail_Transit

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

Actually Edmonton's population was approximately 400,000 when they started planning for the LRT. In 1974 construction began and the population was 445,000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_Light_Rail_Transit

It's a quite common mistake to make; to assume Edmonton is 1.1 million - when its a regional population. It happens around here in Calgary too; because everyone lumps High River, Airdrie, Cochrane, Okatoks and Rockyview County in with calgary - giving a regional population of about 1.5 million. But calgary is actually 1.1 million according to the City's census numbers released last week.

[halifaxboyns]

I've taken some of Empire's list; because I want to touch on a couple things:
What Halifax is missing:

- Stadium
I think we've all agreed that HRM needs one - whether it's Fenwick's vision for a soccer field or my vision for a new hockey arena. I think Fenwick's vision is cheaper in the long run; but at some point a new arena for hockey will be needed. Plus if the population gets up there; we might able to support a better hockey team.

- Large conference centre
Totally agree.

- Subway line - Robie, Barrington/ Gottingen, Quinpool, Spring Garden (30 years from now/ and yes you can bore through bedrock)
Problem with bedrock drilling is the expense, but it is coming down as the technology improves. I'd say once HRM reaches the 500,000 is the best time to consider this and see where the other two levels of government would be to cost share.

- Performing Arts Centre (Waterfront)
That's a new idea I've not heard floated - I agree. Could be built on infill into the harbour - coming from the LRT (as could a new hockey arena).

- True heritage district
I like the heritage streetscapes districts and that one has been setout in HbD. I definately think that some other buildings could be kept as part of a heritage program - more walking tours to show this off are needed. Heritage can be kept while development occurs.

- Select sites for tall office towers downtown
You must be reading my mind - yet again I agree. Downtown Dartmouth; with some select areas being retained for heritage and for residential. Sites in downtown Halifax but also in other locations like Bedford and the Business Parks.

- Aquarium (should be built at BIO)
- National scale marine museum (Ottawa funding)
These two are new ideas too - but I like them and totally agree with them. These are things that could be cost shared with various levels of government to reduce cost to HRM tax payers.

- Better use of transit (more transit hubs with downtown shuttles)
More residential in downtown and adjacent areas will achieve this - its underway slowly; but will improve with time.

- Water taxis, Access to McNab's – low impact Stanley Park type urban use
I put these together because I think you could also lump George's island into this as well. What a great idea and I believe its been mentioned before; but I'm totally in support of this.

- Forward thinking administration
I've said it before and I'll say it again; I get the feeling that administration is taking the tone from council; which is don't rock the boat. So, I think administration is being given direction to be middle of the road. I on the other hand believe you can't progress a city without ticking some people off (which depending on who they are can be sometimes fun - I have an evil streak). It's my goal to come back to work for HRM at some point; I hope. There was an article that many of the senior administrators will be retiring in 5 years - so I'll be on that.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

- Forward thinking administration
I've said it before and I'll say it again; I get the feeling that administration is taking the tone from council; which is don't rock the boat. So, I think administration is being given direction to be middle of the road. I on the other hand believe you can't progress a city without ticking some people off (which depending on who they are can be sometimes fun - I have an evil streak). It's my goal to come back to work for HRM at some point; I hope. There was an article that many of the senior administrators will be retiring in 5 years - so I'll be on that.

According to the allnovascotia.com it could happen sooner than that. Reportedly quite a few executives might decide to follow Dan English's move and move on. Will you be able to stand up to the councillors halifaxboyns? It sounds like the councillors really chew the staffers up.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

It's a quite common mistake to make; to assume Edmonton is 1.1 million - when its a regional population. It happens around here in Calgary too; because everyone lumps High River, Airdrie, Cochrane, Okatoks and Rockyview County in with calgary - giving a regional population of about 1.5 million. But calgary is actually 1.1 million according to the City's census numbers released last week.

To be more exact Calgary has only 1.05 million (I read the article in a paper last week).

I think a LRT system similar to Calgary's C-Train could work in Halifax. It could start off simply with a two-track line running on the roads between Mumford and Spring Garden.

Anyways I'll post more details of what I think in the proper thread.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

According to the allnovascotia.com it could happen sooner than that. Reportedly quite a few executives might decide to follow Dan English's move and move on. Will you be able to stand up to the councillors halifaxboyns? It sounds like the councillors really chew the staffers up.

If I can stand up to Calgary City Council, I can stand up to anything. Alderman Hodges loves to talk about the 'dudes' who pull 'capers'. The first time I went up; he asked me if I remembered what happened to a parcel back in 1982. I was 5. lol
So I said to him; with respect - I was 5.
He laughed - ever since then I've been okay. McIvor can be another story; but bring it on.
We learn by doing - besides Councillor Sloane (so I'm told by my family) is a distant cousin.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

To be more exact Calgary has only 1.05 million (I read the article in a paper last week).

I think a LRT system similar to Calgary's C-Train could work in Halifax. It could start off simply with a two-track line running on the roads between Mumford and Spring Garden.

Anyways I'll post more details of what I think in the proper thread.

The problem with the C-train is that it utilizes an entire street; to itself (with the exception of other transit buses). So in order to do that in Halifax; you'd have to close down Spring Garden Road and Barrington Street to traffic. Otherwise; you'd have to consider other streets like Sackville and Brunswick.

I hope you enjoyed the tour of Calgary.

[fenwick16]

I honestly feel bad for the municipality of Halifax. It has so much potential to grow and become a great city, but the city staffers who are probably the best qualified to be making proper decisions for the municipality keep get forced out by the councillors. And the sad thing is that a couple times their reason has been that they don't like things that the CAO has said. The city council has become dysfunctional and I don't know how it can be corrected, except that the residents need better qualified councillors to vote for.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I honestly feel bad for the municipality of Halifax. It has so much potential to grow and become a great city, but the city staffers who are probably the best qualified to be making proper decisions for the municipality keep get forced out by the councillors. And the sad thing is that a couple times their reason has been that they don't like things that the CAO has said. The city council has become dysfunctional and I don't know how it can be corrected, except that the residents need better qualified councillors to vote for.

When you don't have firm leadership - then you don't get results. Now whether that failed leadership is as a result of the City Manager or Council; it's hard to say (IMO).

One thing that I will say about Halifax; is that the youth movement is growing. More and more people in university (especially from the Planning studies program at Dal and Geography at SMU) seem to be popping up at the City council meetings on major or 'controversial' projects and having their say. One speaker recently talked about him moving from small town NB to get and education and wanting to stay in Halifax because he loved it. More of this needs to occur and we need to be encouraging debate about projects as we go forward.

I don't think we should stop having debate about moving forward - there needs to be some discussion; but Halifax needs a firm vision of moving forward. Does Industry grow to build the economy? If so - what kind of industry? What is the vision of downtown? These are important questions and thinks to create vision for. These are questions that need to be answered soon; but if they aren't - the new regional plan could certainly answer them.

The next regional plan is needed by 2026 and I would say the best way to start the process is to have the conversation of the vision. Calgary did that as part of the Plan It Calgary process. The first part - they called Vision Calgary and it asked all the questions about how the city should grow and feel in the future; I'd say that is the first part of the process for HRM. The second part will be implementation of that vision - by creating the policies to support that vision.

Vancouver and BC have a very centred vision for their cities; a very specific way of designing and architecture; HRM could have that too. We just need to sit down and define it. Will it be easy? Heck no.

[halifaxboyns]

From the CBC website; but written by the Canadian Press:

Downtown Halifax torn over bid to construct convention centre in city core
Published: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 | 4:23 PM ET
Canadian Press Ronan O'Beirne, The Canadian Press
HALIFAX - A proposal to build a convention centre in Halifax has triggered a heated debate over the city's downtown core, which some say is in dire need of revitalization after years of neglect.

Downtown Halifax — particularly the Barrington Street area — once brimmed with shops, theatres and restaurants, attracting droves of families who sought an escape from their daily work lives.

But in recent years windows have been shuttered, doors closed and buildings torn down. Earlier this year, the old Halifax Herald building was demolished, leaving a concrete cavity the size of a football field in the middle of downtown.

Development company Rank Inc. has proposed to erect a 14-storey convention centre on the site. Members of the local business community are banking on the centre to be a shot in the arm for downtown.

Paul MacKinnon, executive director of the Downtown Halifax Business Commission, says the convention centre would represent a "momentum shift" for downtown, which he says the municipality has neglected for the past 15 years.

"The potential of downtown and of Halifax as a whole is greater than what we've been able to achieve," he said, adding that the city "can no longer afford to ignore downtown."

MacKinnon said the entire downtown core stands to gain from the new convention centre.

"We know from talking to businesses that the convention industry's spinoff benefits are extremely important for downtown," he said, adding that approval of the bid would also be a critical boost in morale for the business community.

But not all are convinced that the project would be a watershed for the downtown.

Allan Robertson, a retired management consultant who now works with a group against the project called the Coalition to Save the View, said the centre would only sequester convention delegates.

"The essence of a convention centre is to get (delegates) in and keep them in," he said. "They don't have a lot to do with encouraging people to go out."

He cited a report by fellow coalition member Beverly Miller, who drew up a list of 10 alternatives for improving the downtown.

They include changing municipal tax policies, which Miller says unfairly favour suburban retail parks at the expense of downtown.

Robertson also suggested that it could be made into a European-style public square to act as a hub for the downtown.

Much has been written in local media and blogs in recent months about the state of Halifax's downtown core, especially Barrington Street.

Barrington was once the heart of activity downtown. The street used to house marquee department stores like Eaton's and Woolworth's, as well as two cinemas.

Garry Shutlak, an archivist with Nova Scotia Archives, said Barrington's profile began to slip as early as the 1960s, when Eaton's moved to the Halifax Shopping Centre. The exodus of big-name stores continued over the next two decades, as more shops opted for suburban malls.

Barrington has seen a similar slew of closures in the past three years. Sam the Record Man abruptly closed up shop in 2007, and has since been followed by Dooly's pool hall, CD Plus and photography store Carsand-Mosher, among others.

Cheryl Stewart, the chairwoman of Fusion Halifax, an advocacy group for Halifax youths, said this trend would only continue if the bid for the convention centre is not approved.

"It would be another hit on our collective confidence. We have to be less risk-averse as a community," she said.

MacKinnon and Stewart are not alone in their support. The Halifax Chamber of Commerce and Mayor Peter Kelly have voiced their enthusiasm, and an online petition backing the convention centre amassed more than 1,600 signatures.

But the Coalition to Save the View says the centre would be an immense burden on Nova Scotia's taxpayers, and would not bring in the tax revenue the government expects, which according to one study is estimated to be $170 million over 10 years.

The government received Rank's proposal for the site last week and says it will take several weeks to sift through the bid before coming to a decision.

There are no details on a price tag for the entire project, which would also include hotel, office and retail space, but estimates for the public portion of the convention space alone run at between $120 and $140 million.

[worldlyhaligonian]

PPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTT

These assholes are talking about changing the tax structure downtown, but at the same time being obstuctionist against the very type of development that would result from making downtown office developments more feasible.

Give me a fucking break.

And this Robertson guy was a managment consultant? So turning one of the most valuable pieces of land downtown into "a european-style public space" is your idea of good managment? I guess he doesn't have to worry about the economy or job growth anymore because he's retired.

I thought the Waterfront, Commons, Public Gardens, Victoria Park, and Cornwallis park fufilled the public space need. How much green space or public space do we need in this city because it seems to be abundant in my opinion.

[someone123]

The Grand Parade is a block away from this site.

The "alternatives" present a false dilemma. Tax structure should be fixed regardless of whether or not the convention centre is built, although I have serious doubts when it comes to council following through on something like that. It's much easier to get them to do something like approve spending on a project.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Grand Parade is a block away from this site.

The "alternatives" present a false dilemma. Tax structure should be fixed regardless of whether or not the convention centre is built, although I have serious doubts when it comes to council following through on something like that. It's much easier to get them to do something like approve spending on a project.

Its totally a false dilemma... there is no reason not to have a tax structure that is most socially beneficial and this project is not holding back such changes to be made. In fact, a convention centre downtown might enable the municipality to make changes while improving or keeping tax revenues neutral in the downtown core.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Credit: Barque Picton Castle on Flickr

It would be nice to see The Centennial Group swap lots with Rank Inc. This waterfront lot would be spectacular for a combo Performing Arts Centre and Convention Centre. This could then be cost shared. The waterfront lot is approx. 20% larger than the Herald/Midtown lot.