PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

Am I the only person that hates IHOP? Its gross to me and I would prefer a local mom and pop breakfast joint.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm. Taking out the sarcasm, the argument is something like that for the same reasons Ace Hotel visitors are unlikely to be excited about eating breakfast in an IHOP, they would also not be excited about buying batteries in a Dollar Tree.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

The former arena site is huge.

Exactly... and immediately adjacent to Pittsburgh's tallest buildings.

That's why pointing out that "The new Google building @ Bakery Square is about the same height and makes a huge impact on the corner of East Liberty Blvd and Penn Ave." as somehow relevant to US Steel's new building is puzzling.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Sure, places to buy batteries are just like restaurants. Higher-income people are surely only to be interested in carefully-curated selections of artisanal, locally-produced AAA batteries. We must ban Dollar Tree . . . and CVS . . . and Target . . . our beloved young professionals should never have to sully their noble eyes with the sight of competitively-priced goods and services!!!

Come to think of it, better tear up the East Busway too.

I am not limited to high end shopping only. I love Dollar Tree, Wholefoods, Nordstrom, Goodwill, Target, Home Depot, Kmart, Giant Eagle, Bottom Dollar, Gabriel Bros............. I use certain stores for certain things. Dollar Tree is good for movie night snacks and batteries for my 12 year old son. Nordstrom is the spot for Bruno Magli shoes.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Exactly... and immediately adjacent to Pittsburgh's tallest buildings.

To be fair, I could see looking at the Mellon Services Center and Chatham Center and thinking starting on that scale would be reasonable. If that went well, maybe something to rival USX and One Mellon could eventually be considered.

But none of that undermines your point, since they are starting nowhere near any of that.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Sure, places to buy batteries are just like restaurants. Higher-income people are surely only to be interested in carefully-curated selections of artisanal, locally-produced AAA batteries. We must ban Dollar Tree . . . and CVS . . . and Target . . . our beloved young professionals should never have to sully their noble eyes with the sight of competitively-priced goods and services!!!

Come to think of it, better tear up the East Busway too.

Elitist!!

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

I am not limited to high end shopping only. I love Dollar Tree, Wholefoods, Nordstrom, Goodwill, Target, Home Depot, Kmart, Giant Eagle, Bottom Dollar, Gabriel Bros............. I use certain stores for certain things. Dollar Tree is good for movie night snacks and batteries for my 12 year old son. Nordstrom is the spot for Bruno Magli shoes.

Yeah, that was my sarcastic response. In truth I agree with you, and apparently so does a lot of the market. Which is just rational--if you are buying a small, low-value commodity product anyway, why wouldn't convenience and cost be the determining factors?

Heck, even if your butler shops for you, you should still send HIM to the dollar store for batteries (and then have him put them in the remote and finally change the channel for you).

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Exactly... and immediately adjacent to Pittsburgh's tallest buildings.

That's why pointing out that "The new Google building @ Bakery Square is about the same height and makes a huge impact on the corner of East Liberty Blvd and Penn Ave." as somehow relevant to US Steel's new building is puzzling.

East Liberty and the Lower Hill District are two inner city neighborhoods. One just happens to be adjacent to downtown. Again, the site is huge and can accommodate buildings of varying height. I would have prefered a smaller footprint to increase the height. No point in crying over spilled milk, it is what it is at this point. I am happy that US Steel is committed to the city and I will reserve judgment until I see the finished product.

By the way.........the three story office buildings on the north shore turned out way better that I could have imagined.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Yeah, that was my sarcastic response. In truth I agree with you, and apparently so does a lot of the market. Which is just rational--if you are buying a small, low-value commodity product anyway, why wouldn't convenience and cost be the determining factors?

Heck, even if your butler shops for you, you should still send HIM to the dollar store for batteries (and then have him put them in the remote and finally change the channel for you).

I picked up on the sarcasm. I just dont understand the opposition to a dollar tree??? Oh....I forgot to mention playing deck cards, birthday cake candles, and large jugs of Arizona Tea.

[dfiler]

There are certainly various reasons why any particular person may like or dislike a type of business in their neighborhood.

I personally wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood with one. Preferable to me would be an independent corner store and specialty shops fronting a walkable business district. All of the shops would preferably be unique with long-term employees, many times the owner and their family.

Some people want cheap prices. Others want convenience or atmosphere. Others want to support a socioeconomic model, etc.

I can't put my finger on why, but it doesn't seem like people are flocking to dollar store neighborhoods. Instead, they're flocking to places like lawrenceville and whatever it is.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by dfiler

I can't put my finger on why, but it doesn't seem like people are flocking to dollar store neighborhoods. Instead, they're flocking to places like lawrenceville and whatever it is.

Lawrenceville has a Family Dollar now at the corner of Penn and 33rd (only one block below Doughboy Square). Lawrenceville still has a Rent-A-Center, and several storefronts for tax-filing companies (which tend to be for poor people, since many middle-class people either hire real accountants or file their own taxes).

Honestly, people "concerned" about the Dollar Tree are coming across as borderline racist to me. Or, at least, presuming that the white yuppies moving there are racist, and will promptly turn tail and run when they see the dollar store. Forgetting that that block was mostly a blighted ruin already, and it didn't seem to hurt anything.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by dfiler

I personally wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood with one. Preferable to me would be an independent corner store and specialty shops fronting a walkable business district. All of the shops would preferably be unique with long-term employees, many times the owner and their family.

Although people are entitled to their ideals, this vision is in practice not possible for commercial areas of significant size. The fact is that for a lot of basic commodities, all the retailers ultimately have the same supply chains (stretching back to China and such), and there is no competitive advantage to providing better service when people walk in knowing what they want. Hence economies of scale and branding take over.

That's why chain convenience and drug stores are now everywhere (including--gasp!--Lawrenceville). The subtext here seems to be that somehow a dollar store is fundamentally different from a chain convenience or drug store, but it really isn't these days.

By the way, there used to be a Woolworth's along Penn in East Liberty. Which was what was called a "five and dime" (or variations thereof) back then. Which is the exact same thing as a "dollar store" (except for the inflation).

So maybe if this was called "Ye Olde Timey Five and Dimey" (but otherwise identical), it would be meeting with less reflexive hostility.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Honestly, people "concerned" about the Dollar Tree are coming across as borderline racist to me. Or, at least, presuming that the white yuppies moving there are racist, and will promptly turn tail and run when they see the dollar store. Forgetting that that block was mostly a blighted ruin already, and it didn't seem to hurt anything.

To be fair, it is more just classism than racism.

But it is frustrating to me that in general people on all sides keep pushing this idea that mixed-income retail, or mixed-income neighborhoods in general, are impossible, because higher-income people as a group will refuse to be around lower-income people.

At this point there are many, many counterexamples, and indeed many, many studies, showing that assumption is unfounded. East Liberty itself has been defying that sort of proposition for many years now. But the notion just won't go away, and apparently this dollar store somehow pushes that button a little harder than usual.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

East Liberty and the Lower Hill District are two inner city neighborhoods. One just happens to be adjacent to downtown.

That alone is a massive difference, but I don't think the premise is correct. The former Civic Arena site really isn't a neighborhood at all right now--it has no residents, no businesses, nothing. In that sense it is really a blank slate.

Now as a policy matter, some people WANT it to become seen as an extension of the existing developed part of the Lower Hill. But that is not what it is right now, it is something that would have to be made of it, and that is no more a natural outcome than it becoming an extension of Downtown--or in fact both (the site is large enough to be an extension of Downtown on one end, and an extension of the Lower Hill on the other, and a transition area in between)

And of course this US Steel building isn't going to help make it an extension of the Lower Hill OR Downtown. It is the first step in defining the site as something else, and a something else that looks pretty disappointing.

I am happy that US Steel is committed to the city

That, unfortunately, is the problem right there. The Penguins were handed the development rights for political reasons. They have in turn partnered with U.S. Steel for political reasons. Pride in local sports team and long-standing local firms makes for good politics, but bad land use.

By the way.........the three story office buildings on the north shore turned out way better that I could have imagined.

Seriously? I think they are horrific. I'm still mad about the mismatched brick, and in general they look incredibly cheap.

[WillyC]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

To be fair, it is more just classism than racism.

But it is frustrating to me that in general people on all sides keep pushing this idea that mixed-income retail, or mixed-income neighborhoods in general, are impossible, because higher-income people as a group will refuse to be around lower-income people.

It is classism. Many times I avoid such neighborhoods because I am tired of being asked for a dollar every day. My mind just clicks into mindless assumption mode that such neighborhoods will be filled with people asking me for a dollar even though I know better. Truth is they come to the nice areas and ask me for a dollar there.

[WillyC]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Seriously? I think they are horrific. I'm still mad about the mismatched brick, and in general they look incredibly cheap.

Not a fan of the buildings, but I was down there the other week and couldn't notice a difference in the brick like there was in the pics posted over the summer. Anyone got any recent pics? Could it have just been a lighting issue or maybe fresh brick needing some weathering?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by WillyC

Not a fan of the buildings, but I was down there the other week and couldn't notice a difference in the brick like there was in the pics posted over the summer. Anyone got any recent pics? Could it have just been a lighting issue or maybe fresh brick needing some weathering?

It was still there like October-ish, but I'll admit I haven't looked since.

It would be great if they fixed it (it was definitely two different brick mixes, I confirmed that in person).

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by WillyC

It is classism. Many times I avoid such neighborhoods because I am tired of being asked for a dollar every day. My mind just clicks into mindless assumption mode that such neighborhoods will be filled with people asking me for a dollar even though I know better. Truth is they come to the nice areas and ask me for a dollar there.

Well that's your loss. There's been a Family Dollar store between Allegheny West and The Mexican War Streets for as long as I've lived there and no one seems to upset by that and as far as I can tell, no one has been avoided our neighborhoods because of that.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That alone is a massive difference, but I don't think the premise is correct. The former Civic Arena site really isn't a neighborhood at all right now--it has no residents, no businesses, nothing. In that sense it is really a blank slate.

A blank slate that includes Washington Plaza and Chatham Center. I was very dissapointed with the US Steel design. Hopefully the residential component will rise to the occasion (pun intended). This is the first project that is part of a massive undertaking. I do think Pittsburgh will gain at least two descent sized high rises in that area. We have to start somewhere and I do not want the area to serve as parking for 30 years like the sea of parking around the former Three Rivers.


Now as a policy matter, some people WANT it to become seen as an extension of the existing developed part of the Lower Hill. But that is not what it is right now, it is something that would have to be made of it, and that is no more a natural outcome than it becoming an extension of Downtown--or in fact both (the site is large enough to be an extension of Downtown on one end, and an extension of the Lower Hill on the other, and a transition area in between)

I agree

And of course this US Steel building isn't going to help make it an extension of the Lower Hill OR Downtown. It is the first step in defining the site as something else, and a something else that looks pretty disappointing.

Im no longer dissapointed. I just want the show to begin. Im optimistic and looking for a happy ending.



That, unfortunately, is the problem right there. The Penguins were handed the development rights for political reasons. They have in turn partnered with U.S. Steel for political reasons. Pride in local sports team and long-standing local firms makes for good politics, but bad land use.

I agree.


Seriously? I think they are horrific. I'm still mad about the mismatched brick, and in general they look incredibly cheap.

Seriously! I did not say it was ideal or perfect. It looks better than I expected. I should add that I have not layed eyes on it during the light of day. I did not notice the brick issue. I think the three story buildings turned out better than that Lost Kennywood crap formally known as Demonte Center.

[themaguffin]

There are certainly various reasons why any particular person may like or dislike a type of business in their neighborhood.

I personally wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood with one. Preferable to me would be an independent corner store and specialty shops fronting a walkable business district. All of the shops would preferably be unique with long-term employees, many times the owner and their family.

...and now back to reality.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by themaguffin

...and now back to reality.

Lol. I loved his ideas but yeah, that is truly a wishlist at this point in history.