Rapid Transit

[markbarbera]

There is already grumbling coming from local businesses over the consultant report favouring a route along King Street. The head of the International Village BIA, the BIA most directly affected by a potential LRT route along King (outside of the downtown BIA), has expressed concern over a plan that would place two-way LRT on King. She is concerned (rightly) about the complete loss of streetside parking in order to accomodate LRT along this stretch, as well as the impact reconstruction will have on pedestrian-friendly area, her fear being that some of the recent improvements such as wider sidewalks would be sacrificed to accomodate the LRT as well as street traffic.

Honestly, the push to force LRT onto King rather than Main is short-sighted. It is casting division among a group that should be uniting in support for this initiative, and for no good reason. Why not go with an option that will be acceptable to all parties involved rather than create an opposition that can grow into a deal breaker that could cost the city an LRT?

[SteelTown]

There must be a strong case to put LRT on King if both the City and Metrolinx suggest it. Both have done separate reports and it appears they both came to the same conclusion, two way LRT on King St.

We'll just have to wait for Metrolinx's Business Case report. The City's report is already out.

[SteelTown]

From my understanding the timeline goes like this...

Soon Metrolinx release the findings for BRT or LRT for the B-Line, Business Case.

Rapid Transit office will take the finding for either LRT or BRT for Open Houses with proposed routes, perhaps late August or early September.

Rapid Transit office will finalize a preferred route for the B-Line.

City Council will vote in the Fall for the final route for the B-Line.

Metrolinx will carry on the $3 million Environment Assessment for the B-Line after City Council determined the route.

EA will take 8 or 9 months.

[omro]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

Considering the majority of citizens never use public transit why would you assume that they would be willing to be inconvenienced for the benefit of the few.

That's a very sweeping statement. Someone please quote the ridership statistics for this city, as the buses here rarely seem to be empty.

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

They have been told they are getting LRT. When people envision that they see something other than streetcars running down main streets.

Can you please define (preferably with a photo) what you mean by "streetcar" in this instance?

[BrianE]

I think Bigguy may suffer from a form of short term amnesia. A few pages back a number of us already called him out on his bullshit 'Hamilton is building a sooper sekret streetcar system and when everybody finds out they're gonna be pissed' argument.

So I'll just copy and paste from a previous post that I made.

Hamilton is not building this.

It is building this.

Or this.

Or maybe something like this.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

There must be a strong case to put LRT on King if both the City and Metrolinx suggest it. Both have done separate reports and it appears they both came to the same conclusion, two way LRT on King St.

Metrolinx completed their report and it recommended LRT on King? When was this released - I have missed this somehow

The city's consultant report identified King but did not offer its rationale for deciding King over Main, other than a one-line statement claiming more economic benefit (with no supporting evidence to support the claim)

[highwater]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Metrolinx completed their report and it recommended LRT on King? When was this released - I have missed this somehow

I haven't seen anything to indicate that Metrolinx has made any recommendations re route either.

Originally Posted by markbarbera

The city's consultant report identified King but did not offer its rationale for deciding King over Main, other than a one-line statement claiming more economic benefit (with no supporting evidence to support the claim)

The city rep I spoke to at the open house also only mentioned the economic argument for preferring King. I don't think that's nearly persuasive enough, especially when the King option entails the loss of street parking in the International Village.

[Zaz]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

I know what citizens of this city are going to say...

... I know how the people in this city think...

OK everybody relax and let bigguy handle this on our behalf.

I am a new resident of Hamilton, and I like the 2-way LRT on King option -- perhaps because I don't own property around Main St, (Omro ). I agree with what was said before about the LRT going through the downtown core. I also believe that public transport ridership will quickly increase and fill up whatever capacity is offered by the LRT. With the lower city being so stretched out from East to West and gas/insurance costs going up even during this recession, there is no other way. Crossing King/Main by car to go get groceries 2 blocks away should not be an option.

In any case, it's nice to see movement on this initiative -- definitely a great thing for Hamilton.

[Jon Dalton]

Charlotte, NC (where ridership far surpassed expectations and is now approaching the goal for the year 2025) is the most comparable to what Hamilton will get.

Somehow I doubt that an overwhelming majority of downtown residents will oppose LRT because it would add a minute or two to car trips, given that it will increase their property values and bring investment to their neighbourhoods (like it does in every other city). Are we really that stupid?

What you're really telling me is that Hamilton's future will be decided by the ignorant and disinterested, rather than the well-informed and ambitious. Preventing that is pretty much whole point of civic advocacy.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

When all is said and done, the only people who will use it are the same people using it now.

Pure bullshit. Every bit of research into the matter indicates otherwise.

[realcity]

That's ridiculous. I don't see how it will fit between Wellington and James. They'll likely remove the onstreet parking along the International Village which will hurt that stretch.

The parking makes for large walkable sidewalks and the cars make a buffer between pedestrians and vehicle traffic.

[SteelTown]

You could elevate or tunnel the LRT section from the International Village.

[flar]

Ottawa is building a downtown tunnel as it replaces its current on-street BRT with rail. I doubt there will be enough money in the budget to do that in Hamilton.

An interesting comparison for the Hamilton case: Ottawa's BRT is currently split along two one-way streets downtown (Albert westbound and Slater eastbound).

[jgrwatson]

I don't get why anyone on this forum is even contemplating the idea of loss of car movement. Or even talking about losing lanes...

WHO CARES.

Downtown Hamilton caters to the suburban people who want to fly through DT hamilton and fly up the mountain to go to their suburban homes.

I can't wait to see Main street down to 3 lanes, one for bike and then one for LRT. I can't wait to see all those motorists complaining about increased traffic. I also want to see all cube trucks and bigger banned from downtown streets.

The old saying is, if you built it, they will come. If you look at York street. I STILL Ride my bike down York and cars STILL move and I get home the same time either vehicle or by bike. Yet two lanes are gone due to Libraray construction...people will find new routes.

Personally, I say close King Street off completely! King has more of a chance then Cannon for by-pass. Radical, but true.

[omro]

Walking down Main today, I really do hope someone rethinks the plan to put LRT solely down King. Main so needs the revitalisation investment dollars more than King does, because it has an existing structure that will naturally come up as an overspill.

However, as long as LRT goes on either I'll be happy, but still think Main makes a whole lot more sense than King, even though King makes a more visual statement as a choice.

I've never been on an LRT that has dedicated lanes through a downtown before, so I can't comment on the effect that will have. Most tram systems in the UK generally co-exist in the downtown sections with cars and other street traffic, only having dedicated lanes to reach faster speeds when connecting with more distant areas.

While I want LRT in the downtown and I will never not support having it, I fear that the implementation is potentially short-sighted.

Dedicated lanes throughout the city should be on Main.
If on King, the route should share lanes while through the downtown section and return to dedicated lanes on the wider and more distant stretches.

[Jon Dalton]

I believe the reasoning for King vs. Main is to maintain traffic flow via a 2-way, 2-lane Main St. That's what was said at the meeting. I do buy the arguments about street parking, it is a benefit to the street life as well as business. Would LRT be even better for business, that's what needs to be determined. Though I personally favour LRT on King, I'm open minded about it and look forward to seeing how the debate plays out. Opposition from residents is being greatly exaggerated here. Opposition from business may be significant and I hope it's given due consideration and a compromise is reached, even if it means changing the route.

[omro]

My main oppositions to the Main vs King route can be found here:

I don't think my position has changed that much. If only King were wider in certain places then I would whole heartedly support this route, but the way they seem to be favouring dedicated lanes on the entire length, I can't see King downtown being able to support that without significant reworking of the streetscape, which would mean the loss of some of the wider sidewalks and embellishments such as the "welcome to downtown" signage at the entrance to international village on Wellington/King, especially if they want to maintain car traffic east/west.

If they were to pedestrianise the length, then...

[emge]

Regardless of whether Main or King would see more benefit for LRT, I think there will be few problems. I live near IV and as well as some of the shops are doing, the shops that need foot traffic to survive will benefit greatly from the LRT stops.

International Village will lose some curb parking and likely sidewalk width, but there aren't many other stretches that will have to worry about it. Side lots becoming well-signed, with bright signs and obvious arrows can be utilized to compensate, though it's not quite as convenient. However, the detriment to International Village will be offset by several of LRT and two-ways' benefits.

One, by having an LRT stop in proximity (unlike the B-line, which does not stop anywhere near it now, but I'm guessing there will be one Wellington-ish and perhaps another further down the street)

Two, as traffic slows down, having people actually stop and see what's on the street. I can't tell you how many times I've pointed out restaurants or shops to people who drive through downtown daily and say "huh, I never noticed that before!"

And three, the effect of economic development as a whole.

So yes, IV will lose out on some of the parking and likely some of the wide sidewalks, but it won't be the death of that area... nor any other area that loses out on some of its desirable features due to LRT.

[SteelTown]

The next Metrolinx meeting is Nov 16th. So I guess that pushes everything for the B-Line construction, either it be LRT or BRT.

The Business Case for the B-Line was suppose to happen this summer but with the merge of GO Transit/Metrolinx and a new committee setup things will get delayed. Which is no surprise but the amount of delay seems like a lot from July to November.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by BrianE

I think Bigguy may suffer from a form of short term amnesia. A few pages back a number of us already called him out on his bullshit 'Hamilton is building a sooper sekret streetcar system and when everybody finds out they're gonna be pissed' argument.

So I'll just copy and paste from a previous post that I made.

Hamilton is not building this.

It is building this.

Or this.

Or maybe something like this.

The last 3 may be a little newer than the first but they are all streetcars anyway you look at it. Stringing a couple of them together isn't going to change that. Light rail is not rapid transit, it is mass transit. We already have that, it's called the HSR.

Spending a billion dollars to run rails down the middle of one of the busiest streets in the city and calling it rapid transit is ridiculous. Taking traffic lanes from that same busy street is also ridiculous especially when no thought has been put into where that traffic will go. It's not going to go away magically just because we have streetcars. It will only force that traffic onto other streets causing the same problems that most of the pro LRT people here are trying to fix on Main and King Sts.