Rapid Transit

[omro]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Yea it appears King St has the upper hand.

A pre-bias before any actual assessments?

Will 2way LRT on Main not even be considered?

[SteelTown]

No, they would have done their own study if Metrolinx determined King St is the best option.

[omro]

So this is official now, LRT won't be on Main or am I reading too much into a graphic?

[SteelTown]

You might find out if it's official on July 13th, Metrolinx meeting.

[drpgq]

Looks very likely that it won't be on Main. I talked to the city engineer at the last meeting at the Sheraton and from talking to her I got the impression only King is being considered.

[omro]

I spoke to her too, however I was under the impression that Metrolinx was going to evaluate both options fairly before making a choice, not being told by the city which route to take.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by omro

I went, missed most of the second presentation. Didn't like the idea of cutting off access to the road with the LRT from the side roads she mentioned a few times. Don't quite see how that's necessary. I did get to chat to the lady for a short while and she did point out that nothing had been decided as of yet, these were all mainly just differing options/thinking out loud.

Originally Posted by highwater

My impression was side road access would only be cut off with the LRT in the outside lane option. With LRT in the median, side streets would be right turn only.

From what I read of the report that is exactly what they are proposing to do. Area residents would no longer be able to cross King St. in their vehicles from one side to the other. It would essentially cut the lower city in half other than the main streets. Once the residents of the neighborhoods affected find this out this proposal will be dead in the water.

[Jon Dalton]

How practical is it to cross King Street in a vehicle today other than the main streets? That one way wall of cars doesn't make it easy. I'm a resident of the area and I drive a car and I'm in favour of the proposal. Anyone else here?

[omro]

I'm trying to think of a tram system in the UK where putting the trams in place has caused access to and from side roads to be cut off. I personally thought that a very unusual proposal. I can only suggest that it is being considered because they fear local drivers will not respect the LRT's right of way.

As for putting LRT on King, I still favour Main as the more direct and wider route on a road that needs far for regeneration spin off than King.

[Blurr]

^^

King goes through the heart of the city, having the LRT go through the downtown core will bring visibility and status to one of the most unique downtowns in Canada.

One of the biggest complaints with Hamilton's image I have come across is the poor state of the downtown core. LRT along King will deal with this issue head on.

[Jon Dalton]

Somehow I doubt it's the residents of the downtown neighbourhoods who will oppose this. The businesses I can understand, just like Spadina in the 70's and St. Clair today. I think the city should offer assistance to the established, legitimate and desireable businesses on the corridor and that should be part of the cost of implementing the system. They could also route it down Wellington, along Main and up John back to King, avoiding the narrow section of King. Routing like this is common in European cities without long straight continuous streets. That would of course disrupt the 4 lane 2 way Main St. that would replace the 1 way system for traffic flow. They could also use King William, a useless street for vehicle traffic, for that stretch.

[flar]

Cutting off traffic across King is suicide for downtown. One of the current problems with the one ways is that it's difficult for cars to get where they need to go without driving around and around. So yes, let's get rid of the defacto expressways and slow things down, but be realistic: for downtown to be successful, it does have to be easy to get around by car. No matter how good the transit system becomes, people will still want to drive downtown, and if there are downtown destinations, I think it's in the best interests of everyone to make them accessible to all means of transportation.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

How practical is it to cross King Street in a vehicle today other than the main streets? That one way wall of cars doesn't make it easy. I'm a resident of the area and I drive a car and I'm in favour of the proposal. Anyone else here?

Take the blinders off and look around, cars cross King St. easily any time of the day. As for you being a resident of the area that may be so, but your only 1 of 100,000 give or take a couple of thousand. Your opinion isn't going to matter much when people realize that they are not going to be able to navigate their neighborhoods in their cars.

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

Somehow I doubt it's the residents of the downtown neighbourhoods who will oppose this. The businesses I can understand, just like Spadina in the 70's and St. Clair today. I think the city should offer assistance to the established, legitimate and desireable businesses on the corridor and that should be part of the cost of implementing the system. They could also route it down Wellington, along Main and up John back to King, avoiding the narrow section of King. Routing like this is common in European cities without long straight continuous streets. That would of course disrupt the 4 lane 2 way Main St. that would replace the 1 way system for traffic flow. They could also use King William, a useless street for vehicle traffic, for that stretch.

Your dreaming again.

Originally Posted by flar

Cutting off traffic across King is suicide for downtown. One of the current problems with the one ways is that it's difficult for cars to get where they need to go without driving around and around. So yes, let's get rid of the defacto expressways and slow things down, but be realistic: for downtown to be successful, it does have to be easy to get around by car. No matter how good the transit system becomes, people will still want to drive downtown, and if there are downtown destinations, I think it's in the best interests of everyone to make them accessible to all means of transportation.

Finally, a voice of reason. Someone who understands what I am trying to point out.
As for the de facto expressways, there is a reason we have them. We don't have an actual expressway running through downtown like most larger cities. That was a decision made in the 50's. Maybe if they actually built one back then we wouldn't have to worry about through traffic using Main and King Sts. to pass through the downtown.
Unfortunately, slowing down those two roads it is going to cause problems on other streets when people try to avoid the inevitable bottleneck that will occur. Streets like York, Aberdeen, Wilson, Cannon and Barton will be swamped with traffic seeking to avoid the downtown.
Anyone who thinks that this streetcar system being proposed is going to be the salvation of the downtown is just dreaming. When all is said and done, the only people who will use it are the same people using it now. So it will be of no benefit to the 90% of the population that never uses public transit now. It's going to be an uphill battle trying to win approval for something that will disrupt the lives of many to benefit a few.

[SteelTown]

No traffic will be cut off from King St, period. No traffic will be cut off from Main St as well. In fact no traffic will be cut off from building LRT for the B-Line.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

Your dreaming again.

Have you seen a real LRT system, ever?

[omro]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

No traffic will be cut off from King St, period. No traffic will be cut off from Main St as well. In fact no traffic will be cut off from building LRT for the B-Line.

The woman at the meeting was saying that this was being considered, she didn't say it would definitely happen.

[Jon Dalton]

The feasibility study did say that crossings would be blocked off on minor side streets. This isn't necessarily a given, it's the result of a rather preliminary study. One of the reasons I asked bigguy1231 if he's ever seen a real LRT system is that signalised and unsignalised crossings are employed in such systems. There's a train coming every 5 minutes. For the one minute that the train is approaching, there's a red light. For the next 4 minutes, there's a green one. Amazing, eh? So there'll be an uproar about having to drive 30 more seconds to cross King St. Great, they'll find a way to put in more of those green and red lights.

Strategic routing is also employed in every system I've seen. There is nothing to say it has to be on one street only. King or Main will be the main route, when it comes to the details, there may be variations. It's not likely that they will use King William for any part of the stretch, that is only an example of how detailed design can respond to the unique issues presented by the route. I don't think I've ever seen an LRT line that only uses one street. Maybe it will here. But to call that 'dreamin' is a blatant display of ignorance.

Big guy, I'm just telling you what exists in real life and that I've personally seen. What you call rose coloured glasses or dreaming, is just stuff that already exists dude. I dare say you're the one with the blinders.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

No traffic will be cut off from King St, period. No traffic will be cut off from Main St as well. In fact no traffic will be cut off from building LRT for the B-Line.

If you take 4 lanes of roadway and cut it down to two lanes to add two way LRT with one traffic lane in each direction then you are cutting off traffic. If you prevent vehicular traffic from crossing King St. on anything but main streets you are cutting off traffic. Thats what they are proposing to do. It's in the report.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

The feasibility study did say that crossings would be blocked off on minor side streets. This isn't necessarily a given, it's the result of a rather preliminary study. One of the reasons I asked bigguy1231 if he's ever seen a real LRT system is that signalised and unsignalised crossings are employed in such systems. There's a train coming every 5 minutes. For the one minute that the train is approaching, there's a red light. For the next 4 minutes, there's a green one. Amazing, eh? So there'll be an uproar about having to drive 30 more seconds to cross King St. Great, they'll find a way to put in more of those green and red lights.

Your assuming that people are willing to wait that extra minute while a streetcar passes. Considering the majority of citizens never use public transit why would you assume that they would be willing to be inconvenienced for the benefit of the few.

Strategic routing is also employed in every system I've seen. There is nothing to say it has to be on one street only. King or Main will be the main route, when it comes to the details, there may be variations. It's not likely that they will use King William for any part of the stretch, that is only an example of how detailed design can respond to the unique issues presented by the route. I don't think I've ever seen an LRT line that only uses one street. Maybe it will here. But to call that 'dreamin' is a blatant display of ignorance.

Ignorant of reality I am not. I know what citizens of this city are going to say once they see these proposals and not just business people. They will realize that they are being sold something that is not what they have been told it would be. They have been told they are getting LRT. When people envision that they see something other than streetcars running down main streets.

Big guy, I'm just telling you what exists in real life and that I've personally seen. What you call rose coloured glasses or dreaming, is just stuff that already exists dude. I dare say you're the one with the blinders.

I don't care what exists elsewhere, I know how the people in this city think and thats all that is going to matter. Once the plans become more public, there is going to be a huge uproar and all those politicians that are onboard right now will change their minds. Oh and yes I have seen LRT's in Toronto, Calgary and just this past spring in Charlotte, North Carolina. I actually made a conscious effort to see the one in Charlotte. It's nothing more than a short streetcar route, and just for informational purposes Charlotte has a number of actual expressways running through their downtown, something this city doesn't have, to alleviate traffic congestion on city streets.

[SteelTown]

Cutting off traiffc to me means removing all car traffic. Cars will still be able to cross along King St even with LRT. They aren't proposing what Buffalo has, no cars on Main St just LRT.