Rural Commuter Rail

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

I agree with this. Ottawa definitely could and should have commuter rail, but it should serve the big three suburbs and a handful of stops within the greenbelt.

By Stage 3, that's essentially what Confed and Trillium are doing. They might have a few extra stops, but wouldn't building a quicker commuter rail just cannibalize riders from that line?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by silvergate

By Stage 3, that's essentially what Confed and Trillium are doing. They might have a few extra stops, but wouldn't building a quicker commuter rail just cannibalize riders from that line?

If commuter rail ever gets built in Ottawa, it'll be the end of LRT expansion. It'll absorb a lot of the peak riders and destroy any motivation for higher governments to spend billions building LRT. And all that just to transfer at Bayview!

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If commuter rail ever gets built in Ottawa ... It'll absorb a lot of the peak riders and destroy any motivation for higher governments to spend billions building LRT.

How about that, folks. Truenorth00 and I agree about something!

As for his notion that "it'll be the end of LRT expansion", nah.

Who financed and built Ottawa's original electric LRT? Government or the private sector?

Who demolished Ottawa's original electric LRT? Government or the private sector?

Now, as for thinking up ways to motivate higher governments to spend billions of dollars, back when I was on the core drafting team for Canada's Green Plan, we did conceptualize a mission-critical thing or two in the recommendations that -- 30 years later -- still await serious attention.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by silvergate

By Stage 3, that's essentially what Confed and Trillium are doing. They might have a few extra stops, but wouldn't building a quicker commuter rail just cannibalize riders from that line?

As was shown elsewhere on this forum, commuter rail to Kanata would actually result in a longer commute than LRT (because of the long, circuitous route and slow acceleration of commuter rail trains) and would require an additional transfer.

As for Barrhaven, Moose's plan has the station in a location that would be inconvenient for the existing 80,000 residents, so LRT would still be faster.

Orleans and Riverside south would not be served by commuter rail, so LRT would be the only option (assuming the Trillium Line could still be operational).

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As was shown elsewhere on this forum, commuter rail to Kanata would actually result in a longer commute than LRT (because of the long, circuitous route and slow acceleration of commuter rail trains) and would require an additional transfer.

Is somebody suggesting there's a binary choice to be made between public sector LRT vs private sector whole-region passenger rail? And are you saying the main line and LRT line to the west would be adjacent to each other? How many LRT stops and transfers will here be between Kanata and, say, Place du Portage in Gatineau? How many regional passenger rail stops and transfers will there be?


RE: As for Barrhaven, Moose's plan has the station in a location that would be inconvenient for the existing 80,000 residents, so LRT would still be faster.

Can you let us know where in Barrhaven the station will be in Moose's plan? I wasn't aware a station location had been selected yet, since we've not yet run the RfP for station developers.


Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[OCCheetos]

Key Costs
40-50 million to repair the Prince of Wales bridge.

His estimate is even lower than MOOSE's (~$60 million). Both are significantly lower than the city's guess (~$200 million+?).

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

His estimate is even lower than MOOSE's (~$60 million). Both are significantly lower than the city's guess (~$200 million+?).

MOOSE's engineering firm REMISZ Consulting Engineers put the PoWB refurbishment at about $50M, incl. cantilevered cycling and pedestrian trails, and seismic upgrades. The preliminary study has been online for more than 2 yrs. MOOSE has proposed to finance that with private sector investment in exchange for running rights on City of Ottawa track.

The 2016 dismantlement and obstruction of the approach track at Bayview, in violation of Section 142 of the Canada Transportation Act now adds about $25M to the cost of running conventional trains through there, based on the REMISZ preliminary estimate. MOOSE has also proposed to finance that with private sector investment in exchange for running rights on City of Ottawa track -- in effect, it would only mean that we'd be running on City track several more years before Ottawa citizens would see lease fees showiing up in the City's financial statements. But we've designed our financing plan to not burden taxpayers.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

But we've designed our financing plan to not burden taxpayers.

Except for all the second order burdens created by the massive sprawl that MOOSE needs to support their plans....

[OCCheetos]

@Joseph Potvin

Based on what you've said in some interviews, am I correct in assuming that the disruption of the track at Bayview is the only reason investors haven't given MOOSE the money it needs to proceed with its feasibility study?

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

@Joseph Potvin
Based on what you've said in some interviews, am I correct in assuming that the disruption of the track at Bayview is the only reason investors haven't given MOOSE the money it needs to proceed with its feasibility study?

Well, the reason you're paraphrasing is because that's not precisely what I said. Your insertion of the word "only" morphs the meaning of what I did say.

The current mayor has gone to the length of ordering the dismantlement of a section of federal railway in violation of Division V of the Canada Transportation Act. I'm told it was in order to keep transit inefficient to and from areas outside his own property tax base (i.e. that's exactly what a senior City official explained to me; that's is not my explanation.) Well if that mayor is then followed by a mayor who shares the vision of regional planners worldwide, including planners at the NCC, and indeed senior staff of the City of Ottawa, then yes, capital investors will feel a heck of a lot more comfortable putting down funds of the necessary scale. Considerable investment has already been made in the MOOSE initiative, but all of us, including me, understand that parochialism is alive and well in Canada's Capital, so first things first.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

@Joseph Potvin

Based on what you've said in some interviews, am I correct in assuming that the disruption of the track at Bayview is the only reason investors haven't given MOOSE the money it needs to proceed with its feasibility study?

The modification to the tracks occurred in 2016, 5 years after Mr. Potvin went public with this plan. There is a pretty extensive discussion on this thread with the problems with the business plan that would surely scare off investors regardless of any modifications made to the track.

[Truenorth00]

"There's a lot happening". Lol. Potvin is now a troll hoping for a Hail Mary where Clive Doucet gets elected and cancels Stage 2 with all the councillors voting for it and west-end conservative MPPs going along with it.

@Joseph Potvin. How about you stay silent till you have an actual investor who is publicly willing to invest millions in you?

[Truenorth00]

@roger1818

Him calling it "regional rail" is intentional deceptive marketing. He's not going to change it. It suits him that people see a picture of a train in his marketing and think it'll be running as frequently as the O-Train.

And we need to stop talking about MOOSE servicing existing riders. Potvin has no intention of doing so. He only what's to service those within the 800m circle. And that rent-seeking won't work for most riders today. If his plan ever came to pass, he'd make it as painful as possible for riders not from his 800m catchment to use MOOSE.

It's funny that he insinuates something nefarious in Watson working to put Ottawa's interests first. Imagine that being considered wrong-headed. But I guess if you don't live in Ottawa...

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And we need to stop talking about MOOSE servicing existing riders. Potvin has no intention of doing so. He only what's to service those within the 800m circle. And that rent-seeking won't work for most riders today. If his plan ever came to pass, he'd make it as painful as possible for riders not from his 800m catchment to use MOOSE.

It's funny that he insinuates something nefarious in Watson working to put Ottawa's interests first. Imagine that being considered wrong-headed. But I guess if you don't live in Ottawa...

But even for people living in those circles it is not really clear what the advantage would be. The VIA train from Smiths Falls takes almost an hour to get to Tremblay and that is with only one stop. Someone buying into one of these developments is probably looking at a two hour door-to-door commute, which may be normal in LA but is insane in the Ottawa area.

[Buggys]

Does the hot track bending affect the summer speed of the Trillium line right now? And would it affect the Confederation line?

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Buggys

Does the hot track bending affect the summer speed of the Trillium line right now? And would it affect the Confederation line?

The Trillium line track doesn't have major heat expansion concerns for a variety of reasons:

- The track is well shaded in most areas, either by trees or the trench
- Much of the track is anchored, every other tie in many places. Anchors prevent the track from sliding along its length.
- Though it is CWR, the segments aren't that long as a result of the number of switches, bridges, diamonds, etc. that break up the length.

There are track slowdowns for other reasons, the spring thaw can cause issues in some places on the line.

[Buggys]

Neat! Thanks!!

[waterloowarrior]

Is LeMine still involved with MOOSE? Yikes.

"Toronto Star: This condo developer collected millions in deposits — and hasn’t built anything"

https://www.thestar.com/news/investigati...n-deposits-and-hasnt-built-anything.html

Central Park Ajax is not officially dead — a court decision expected sometime this fall could save it — but it is on life support. For now it seems destined to become the latest failed venture by the LeMine Investment Group, a company headed by Tong (Thomas) Liu, a developer who dreams big but can’t seem to get anything built.

Liu’s failure to deliver his ambitious projects has left hundreds of purchasers in the lurch. Meanwhile, the 35-year-old is embroiled in at least 14 lawsuits that allege, among other things, that he misrepresented himself, owes millions to investors and doesn’t pay his bills. Earlier this year a judge found that Liu engaged in self-dealing and acted in bad faith.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Is LeMine still involved with MOOSE? Yikes.

"Toronto Star: This condo developer collected millions in deposits — and hasn’t built anything"

https://www.thestar.com/news/investigati...n-deposits-and-hasnt-built-anything.html

I believe they moved on to other potential investors?

[Allandale25]

^ Haven't seen many updates. And it looks like Watson will be easily re-elected which means he'll press ahead with the plan.