The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That would only be the case if the discussion pertained to places where that is true. But if it's about Toronto, then obviously not.

I didn't think we were only talking about Toronto at this point. If we are, it's not like I'm against them being there, I just don't believe in building new ones. I've ridden the streetcar in Toronto and in Portland. I really don't get the hype.

[caltrane74]

Using buses on the downtown Toronto streetcar routes, not economically feasible. You would need more buses, more drivers, more fuel.

And I predict the downtown streetcar routes will get more seperation and priority as the population in the core continues to explode.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Using buses on the downtown Toronto streetcar routes, not economically feasible. You would need more buses, more drivers, more fuel.

And I predict the downtown streetcar routes will get more seperation and priority as the population in the core continues to explode.

They are implementing a transit mall on King.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I didn't think we were only talking about Toronto at this point. If we are, it's not like I'm against them being there, I just don't believe in building new ones. I've ridden the streetcar in Toronto and in Portland. I really don't get the hype.

The TTC will never build another street route that isn't in its own right of way. I know it isn't grade separation but, it's a huge step up from mixed traffic. Faster and more reliable especially if the electrical system is contained in the ROW. I've been rerouted a number of times when car accidents blocked the tracks but, there's nothing that can be done when an errant vehicle knocks over a hydro pole supplying the electrical power.

Breakdowns are more frequent with buses. A streetcar can also tow another streetcar because it's on rails. A bus can't safely tow another bus. A broken down bus blocking a lane of traffic in the city's core would be a nightmare for everyone.

[losername]

I don't know, I and several other people I know that ride the queen streetcar thought service was more frequent and faster for the few months when buses were used due to track work. Now they are back to streetcars and service is shit again, bunching, etc.

[losername]

Comparing the comfort differences between the two also is lost on me. A seat is a seat is a seat, in fact I prefer the bus seats more than streetcars. For the most part both are so crowed, that i'm standing most of the time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by losername

Comparing the comfort differences between the two also is lost on me. A seat is a seat is a seat, in fact I prefer the bus seats more than streetcars. For the most part both are so crowed, that i'm standing most of the time.

I have to say that I *do* find most any rail based transit to be a more comfortable ride than buses.

There is far less push and pull and jerking than on buses. Especially on inner city streets.

Buses aren't so bad on highways and boulevards and BRT though.

[GlassCity]

I don't know, maybe it's cause I've been taking the bus every day for years but the bouncing really doesn't bother me at all. Regardless to me the question then becomes is if offering a smoother ride is worth the investment of all that money into one specific corridor, rather than spreading it around.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by losername

Comparing the comfort differences between the two also is lost on me. A seat is a seat is a seat, in fact I prefer the bus seats more than streetcars. For the most part both are so crowed, that i'm standing most of the time.

A seat is a luxury.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't know, maybe it's cause I've been taking the bus every day for years but the bouncing really doesn't bother me at all. Regardless to me the question then becomes is if offering a smoother ride is worth the investment of all that money into one specific corridor, rather than spreading it around.

It can't be answered without actual capital and operation costs over the lifecycle of a streetcar line.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The TTC will never build another street route that isn't in its own right of way. I know it isn't grade separation but, it's a huge step up from mixed traffic. Faster and more reliable especially if the electrical system is contained in the ROW. I've been rerouted a number of times when car accidents blocked the tracks but, there's nothing that can be done when an errant vehicle knocks over a hydro pole supplying the electrical power.

Breakdowns are more frequent with buses. A streetcar can also tow another streetcar because it's on rails. A bus can't safely tow another bus. A broken down bus blocking a lane of traffic in the city's core would be a nightmare for everyone.

Originally Posted by losername

I don't know, I and several other people I know that ride the queen streetcar thought service was more frequent and faster for the few months when buses were used due to track work. Now they are back to streetcars and service is shit again, bunching, etc.

What they need to do is 2 fold.

1) All streetcar lanes are transit vehicles/emergency vehicles only. Next time they do construction, build a curb.

2) No on street parking on those streets.

This would still have 1 lane of traffic flowing, and still have the streetcars go by unimpeded.

I know, I know, it is not going to happen, but it would work.

[WhipperSnapper]

My route has been indefinitely replaced by buses. They are faster but my impression is not because they can weave in and out of traffic. It is because they can turnover a stop faster. They are low floor and can accelerate and brake a little faster than a CLRV/ALRV.

[J.OT13]

Couple videos of the Confederation Line. The first is a quick walk through Place de Ville's underground mall and the future integrated entrance to Lyon station. The guy then proceeds to visiting Kontinuum, a sound and light show they had during the summer inside the station.

• Video Link

The next one shows a snip-it of the simulator OC Transpo will use to train conductors. Seems the trains will be automated. Drivers will just be there to ensure it runs smoothly.

• Video Link

Here we have City Councilor Mathieu Fleury talking about Lees and uOttawa stations, the two that are just east of the tunnel.

• Video Link

[caltrane74]

Streetcars have more space than buses, they are cheaper than buses to operate.

Ask yourself how long a bus lasts, Toronto streetcars have been on the road for over 40 years.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Streetcars have more space than buses, they are cheaper than buses to operate.

Ask yourself how long a bus lasts, Toronto streetcars have been on the road for over 40 years.

Seattle has 6 kilometres of streetcar and it cost it $190 million to implement it. That's enough to pay for much more than 6 kilometres of bus service at the same headways.

Or if you had a streetcar line replace a bus route, what are you paying for? A different vehicle to do the same thing? That money could have been invested into higher frequency on the bus, which increases ridership (and actually helps mobility) more than vehicle type.

Streetcars might be cheaper as vehicles when you already have the tracks in the ground, but to build entirely new lines is definitely more expensive and makes the explicit decision/judgment that vehicle is more important than service.

[ssiguy]

To add to the above, new systems also require massive new maintenance & garage centres.

Nearly all new streetcar systems are vanity projects for politicians and money makers for developers along the route. They consistently have a negative impact on ridership because the amount spent on them could be used to increase the bus fleet, service, or create BRT systems at a much cheaper cost.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Seattle has 6 kilometres of streetcar and it cost it $190 million to implement it. That's enough to pay for much more than 6 kilometres of bus service at the same headways.

Or if you had a streetcar line replace a bus route, what are you paying for? A different vehicle to do the same thing? That money could have been invested into higher frequency on the bus, which increases ridership (and actually helps mobility) more than vehicle type.

Streetcars might be cheaper as vehicles when you already have the tracks in the ground, but to build entirely new lines is definitely more expensive and makes the explicit decision/judgment that vehicle is more important than service.

Streetcars have high capital costs upfront but over time a bus system, at the same length, costs more money due to bus replacements, maintenance and labour.

.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by osmo

Streetcars have high capital costs upfront but over time a bus system, at the same length, costs more money due to bus replacements, maintenance and labour.

.

I am not sure why those benefits are real. Infrastructure for streetcars is more complicated than for buses, you have to maintain the rails and the electrical systems. Also, streetcars may last longer but they still will need major overhauls in order to keep them running that long. When it comes to labour costs, savings can only happen if frequency is reduced. How does that attract more ridership? I always questioned the merits of investing a pile of money to save on operating costs if in the end, service is worse. I can understand this only if ridership is so high that buses cannot keep up with demand and streetcars will still run every 5 minutes, so that service is not materially reduced. But if the end result is replacing buses running every 10 minutes with streetcars running every 15 minutes, why bother? The public is worse off after the massive investment.

[WhipperSnapper]

This is getting confusing. Is the conversation about implementing new systems or maintainng the current system in Toronto. I just don't see Toronto/Ontario having saved a ton of money to invest in high order transit expansion if they abandoned the system for buses over replacing the tired PCCs with CLRVs back in the 1970s. That includes some misguided, bargain basement, rail rebuilds throughout the 1980s.

Buses also go through rebuilds. The difference is it's a few short years instead of a decade or longer.

[SkahHigh]

A metro line proposed by mayoral candidate Valerie Plante, serving Montreal-North, Rosemont, parts of The Plateau and, in a second phase, Lachine. Completion for 2028. REM is in light grey on the map. This also include the Orange line extension to the future Bois-Franc REM station and the Blue line extension to Anjou.



Interesting but seems like typical empty promises to me.