The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[TorontoDrew]

I love our streetcars. 10x more comfortable to ride then a bus. As a cyclist as well streetcars are much easier to share the road with unlike buses that weave in and out of bike lines to pick up passengers. They are higher capacity and create zero emissions as well. Streetcars don't cause traffic, cars cause traffic.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

That's because streetcars are by far the worst form of public transportation. They are basically buses that can't swerve around to avoid an obstruction or change route if there is construction etc.

Metro>rapid LRT (Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa...)>BRT>Express buses>horse and carriage>>>>streetcars

Average transit speeds from APTA:
https://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/FactBook/2015-APTA-Fact-Book.pdf

walking: 3-4 mph (my estimate)
Streetcar: 7.3 mph
Ferry boat: 7.6 mph
BRT: 10.5 mph
Bus: 12.5 mph (faster since more suburban)
bicycle 15 mph (my estimate)
LRT: 15.6 mph
Metro: 20.1 mph
Hybrid rail: 28.0 mph
Commuter rail: 32.5 mph

Even a ferry is faster than a streetcar. In some cities, such as Portland and Washington, it is sometimes even faster to simply walk than take the streetcar. If you want people to consider streetcars as RT than so would everything since it is literally the slowest form of transit. (You do realize that the 'R' in RT is rapid and not rail right?)

[TorontoDrew]

I'd rather walk then use a bus. Lol at comparing ferries to streetcars. Something that only goes from point a to point b with no traffic. Those points aren't really a good anti streetcar argument either as they point put bus times are suburban meaning fewer stops allowing them to reach higher speeds.

[TownGuy]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Average transit speeds from APTA:
https://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/FactBook/2015-APTA-Fact-Book.pdf

walking: 3-4 mph (my estimate)
Streetcar: 7.3 mph
Ferry boat: 7.6 mph
BRT: 10.5 mph
Bus: 12.5 mph (faster since more suburban)
bicycle 15 mph (my estimate)
LRT: 15.6 mph
Metro: 20.1 mph
Hybrid rail: 28.0 mph
Commuter rail: 32.5 mph

Even a ferry is faster than a streetcar. In some cities, such as Portland and Washington, it is sometimes even faster to simply walk than take the streetcar. If you want people to consider streetcars as RT than so would everything since it is literally the slowest form of transit. (You do realize that the 'R' in RT is rapid and not rail right?)

Not all streetcar lines are created equal. The ones that run on their own ROW would be significantly faster than the number you posted. As we know Toronto has a number of these lines.

Also it can't be emphasized enough that people simply enjoy riding on streetcars but not buses. There are no redeeming qualities about a bus.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

Not all streetcar lines are created equal. The ones that run on their own ROW would be significantly faster than the number you posted. As we know Toronto has a number of these lines.

Also it can't be emphasized enough that people simply enjoy riding on streetcars but not buses. There are no redeeming qualities about a bus.

Buses are the last mile solution. Buses zigzagging through neighbourhoods bringing them to rail transit is a good thing. Buses as RT, or trunk lines, not so good.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

Not all streetcar lines are created equal. The ones that run on their own ROW would be significantly faster than the number you posted. As we know Toronto has a number of these lines.

Also it can't be emphasized enough that people simply enjoy riding on streetcars but not buses. There are no redeeming qualities about a bus.

And when buses were first introduced they were more desirable to ride than streetcars. These differences are social constructs the same way fashion styles are. Preferences change all the time. Today this may be true because we treat our streetcar lines much better than our bus lines.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

And when buses were first introduced they were more desirable to ride than streetcars. These differences are social constructs the same way fashion styles are. Preferences change all the time.

There are a bunch of characteristics that are or aren't inherently desirable though. You do want fast service at a low cost. You don't want noise and pollution. I think part of the reason for the confusion is that different classes of transportation have a mix of these and the mix has changed over time.

You could make a huge list of desirable and undesirable characteristics but a few of them are:

- Dedicated right of way or runs in mixed traffic
- Combustion engine or electric
- Automated or not
- Speed
- Capacity
- Internal seating configuration

These are all somewhat independent of which type of vehicle or class of technology you're talking about, and the mix has changed over time (generally we've gotten more variety within each class). For example it used to be true that you had to either run overhead wires or use combustion engines, but now there are electric battery-powered buses that are a lot quieter than the diesel buses.

The dedicated ROW is generally much more important than the transit technology that runs along the route. It seems common for debates to get into the weeds discussing transit vehicles before the ROW is even established. It doesn't matter much how great the vehicles are if they are stuck in traffic.

[osmo]

Streetcars are large haul and local, isn't good to consider them rapid transit. Toronto is blessed with a large streetcar network but it is a shell of its former self. The system is disjointed with far too many gaps, where if many of the old lines were still in place, you could travel much of the world city without ever needing the subway or a bus.

TTC has missed the mark in refusing to expand (or restore) the network because of a flawed philosophy that streetcars need a ROW. Many streets just can't fit a ROW, and the Spadina example was only made possible because of the quirk of Spadina being one of the widest streets in the city. Spadina is also a joke as their are too many stops and far too many red lights that slow and bog down the short route. The Bathurst streetcar in many cases is faster than Spadina as it has less stops.


To make streetcars go faster means providing true signal prioritizing and banning parking on streetcar routes to help flow traffic along. On areas such as King Street this needs a higher order of transit as it has outgrown the streetcar.

Many area of the city would do well with a streetcar.

Parliament or Sherbourne
Dufferin or Ossington (or Davenport potentially)
West harbourfront
East Harbourfront
Mt Pleasant
The Junction area

[TownGuy]

I wouldn't fault Toronto or the TTC. One of the only places that had the foresight to keep any kind of system at all. How does the St. Clair ROW fair? Never ridden it.

[Mister F]

^I wouldn't call it a failure at all. It's 20% faster than it was before it was given its own ROW and ridership has gone up. It will probably be faster still with the new streetcars. Calling St. Clair a failure is a tired tactic of Ford Nation types.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

And when buses were first introduced they were more desirable to ride than streetcars.

No they weren't. GM bought up streetcar systems and replaced them with buses specifically because buses are less desirable than streetcars. They wanted to make transit as undesirable as possible so people would buy their cars. Buses have always been worse than streetcars.

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Average transit speeds from APTA:
https://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/FactBook/2015-APTA-Fact-Book.pdf

walking: 3-4 mph (my estimate)
Streetcar: 7.3 mph
Ferry boat: 7.6 mph
BRT: 10.5 mph
Bus: 12.5 mph (faster since more suburban)
bicycle 15 mph (my estimate)
LRT: 15.6 mph
Metro: 20.1 mph
Hybrid rail: 28.0 mph
Commuter rail: 32.5 mph

Even a ferry is faster than a streetcar. In some cities, such as Portland and Washington, it is sometimes even faster to simply walk than take the streetcar. If you want people to consider streetcars as RT than so would everything since it is literally the slowest form of transit. (You do realize that the 'R' in RT is rapid and not rail right?)

That's because streetcars tend to be in crowded downtown areas where all traffic is slow, while buses tend to be in suburban areas where traffic is faster. Streetcars are inherently no slower than buses. In fact, of the transit routes in central Toronto, streetcar lines are actually slightly faster on average than bus routes.

All that being said, of course Toronto's legacy streetcars aren't rapid transit. People ignore streetcars in discussions about rapid transit for good reason. They in no way make up for the scarcity of real rapid transit in central Toronto. RER, on the other hand, will make a huge difference.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by Mister F

No they weren't. GM bought up streetcar systems and replaced them with buses specifically because buses are less desirable than streetcars. They wanted to make transit as undesirable as possible so people would buy their cars. Buses have always been worse than streetcars.

Very true.

Nowadays, a lot of cities in NA build streetcars because they look nice in an urban setting and because they tend to revitalize struggling neighborhoods (a good example would be DC's). But, in a matter of long-distance trips and time-effective transit, it simply isn't the best. Not when operating in mixed traffic. I'd much rather build LRT with a dedicated ROW or at least a tram with a median ROW, similar to what Düsseldorf has:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.2191443,6...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

[caltrane74]

"I want to ride the bus", said no one, EVER!

[FFX-ME]

The GM streetcar conspiracy is only partially true. Sure they bought lines and converted them to buses but many streetcar lines were already being converted to buses before then. The streetcar was doomed to fail since the bus is an inherently superior technology. Can run the same routes as streetcars with about the same capacity and can also move off its track. The current resurgence of streetcars is merely fueled by nostalgia.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

Very true.

Nowadays, a lot of cities in NA build streetcars because they look nice in an urban setting and because they tend to revitalize struggling neighborhoods (a good example would be DC's). But, in a matter of long-distance trips and time-effective transit, it simply isn't the best. Not when operating in mixed traffic. I'd much rather build LRT with a dedicated ROW or at least a tram with a median ROW, similar to what Düsseldorf has:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.2191443,6...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Exactly! The right way to build a streetcar is to simply not build a streetcar and build LRT instead. People just prefer streetcars over buses because they look nice and prefer not to think about their inferiority.

I think companies are catching on to the nature of this fad and are not selling articulated buses that look like streetcars.



Do you think people would still claim rail-buses (aka streetcars) are better. You can have a battery-powered bus that looks like that, makes no emissions or noise AND is able to counter traffic.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

The GM streetcar conspiracy is only partially true. Sure they bought lines and converted them to buses but many streetcar lines were already being converted to buses before then. The streetcar was doomed to fail since the bus is an inherently superior technology. Can run the same routes as streetcars with about the same capacity and can also move off its track. The current resurgence of streetcars is merely fueled by nostalgia.

No way. Folks of old generation just got blinded by the shiny new toy which were buses. Time has shown as that fixed rail movement is superior to lowly buses...

Buses break down much quicker and need to be replaced more often.

Busses impede traffic more so if there isn't for thought to stop placement or side shoulders where buses can pick up and drop off passengers.

Buses don't hold the same number of passengers as streetcars

The bus is rock bottom for customer preferences for transit options.

Buses cost more to operate, more money on staffing

Buses require more space to house the greater numbers of the bus fleet.

Toronto is still running the same ancient streetcars from the 1970s while the city has already gone through a life cycle of buses in my time here and I moved to the city seven years ago. I remember in my home of Regina the city gambled in some shoddy hybrid type busses by Novo if I remember that broke down and then to crap in less than four years causing the city to junk them all and get a new fleet.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by osmo

No way. Folks of old generation just got blinded by the shiny new toy which were buses. Time has shown as that fixed rail movement is superior to lowly buses...

Buses break down much quicker and need to be replaced more often.

Busses impede traffic more so if there isn't for thought to stop placement or side shoulders where buses can pick up and drop off passengers.

Buses don't hold the same number of passengers as streetcars

The bus is rock bottom for customer preferences for transit options.

Buses cost more to operate, more money on staffing

Buses require more space to house the greater numbers of the bus fleet.

Toronto is still running the same ancient streetcars from the 1970s while the city has already gone through a life cycle of buses in my time here and I moved to the city seven years ago. I remember in my home of Regina the city gambled in some shoddy hybrid type busses by Novo if I remember that broke down and then to crap in less than four years causing the city to junk them all and get a new fleet.

Kind of like people today are blinded by the shiny new toy which is the streetcar.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Exactly! The right way to build a streetcar is to simply not build a streetcar and build LRT instead. People just prefer streetcars over buses because they look nice and prefer not to think about their inferiority.

I think companies are catching on to the nature of this fad and are not selling articulated buses that look like streetcars.



Do you think people would still claim rail-buses (aka streetcars) are better. You can have a battery-powered bus that looks like that, makes no emissions or noise AND is able to counter traffic.

In the end it didn't matter what technology is used if the route planning is not done correctly. The issue in America with the streetcar movement is that many cities shit drew lines on a map, being to considerate of tourists also and forgetting that streetcars should serve high traffic corridors as a link between prominent points. America cities also cut corners cresting "phases" where stubs were built for show but ended being short routes that served little purpose to actually move folks around.

Houston has tons of LRT trackage that nobody rides it because the routes weave and wind places nobody wants to go. Portland has less trackage and almost 3x th riderships they build a network that links places people actually travel to.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Kind of like people today are blinded by the shiny new toy which is the streetcar.

Streetcars have been around for 100 years, every corner of the globe has some sort of variant of a streetcar/tram, it is the most efficient and comfortable way to move large groups of people locally.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by osmo

Streetcars have been around for 100 years, every corner of the globe has some sort of variant of a streetcar/tram, it is the most efficient and comfortable way to move large groups of people locally.

Except in North America they were almost entirely abandoned and are only now making a comeback. For the majority of people, they are new, so my analogy stands.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Except in North America they were almost entirely abandoned and are only now making a comeback. For the majority of people, they are new, so my analogy stands.

That would only be the case if the discussion pertained to places where that is true. But if it's about Toronto, then obviously not.