I'm simply obsessed with Chicago

[Wigs]

I guess no one paid attention to Steely.
If Chicago's garbage is tucked away in alleyways then it's "out of sight, out of mind" for visitors. Whereas shop owners, delivery drivers see this side of Chicago all the time.

Regarding rats, I'll never forget that the city of Buffalo once had a really bad rat problem. The biggest solution was the city implemented huge plastic totes to store garbage that are large and heavy so rodents could no longer have an easy food source. Within weeks the rats were invading all the inner suburbs

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Because I think it's rubbish. It's an oft-repeated term, but largely meaningless. And you see it here, with people conflating homeless, flowers, and whatnot with street cleanliness.

Chicago is not a clean city. It isn't a U.S. outlier, in either extreme. It's a big, old, vibrant, dirty town. And I wouldn't want it clean. A clean city is a boring one. It likely means intolerance for activities that make a city interesting. No, not bums, and litterers, but dining al fresco, street vendors, impromptu park gatherings, kids playing, street festivals, etc.

Chicago is a very manicured city, however. It's very organized, at least officially. Boston and SF and NYC generally aren't organized. They're a mess. This is (IMO) the real distinction. But I don't agree that a random Boston resident lives on a meaningfully dirtier street than a random Chicago resident.

Ok. You say Chicago is average. So which US city you'd consider clean?

Originally Posted by Wigs

I guess no one paid attention to Steely.
If Chicago's garbage is tucked away in alleyways then it's "out of sight, out of mind" for visitors. Whereas shop owners, delivery drivers see this side of Chicago all the time.

Regarding rats, I'll never forget that the city of Buffalo once had a really bad rat problem. The biggest solution was the city implemented huge plastic totes to store garbage that are large and heavy so rodents could no longer have an easy food source. Within weeks the rats were invading all the inner suburbs

I find interesting on how rats seem so prevalent on North American cities and some European ones. São Paulo is a rather dirty city, I live Downtown which is the dirtiest part of it and I guess I've seen a rat on the street like 3x since I've moved here back in 2012.

[Chisouthside]

growing up my friend's mom was involved in the political org for a now disgraced former aldermen. And through that she had a job in streets and sanitation. And from what i understood is that since the local chambers of commerce for the main commercial avenues for that ward were big contributors to the aldermans warchest, streets and san had a directive to keep the main avenues spotless even beyond the basic upkeep and cleaning the provided. Im assuming this still happens.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I maintain that it's Chicago's ubiquitous alleys, and their ability to keep more sordid urban activities like trash collection more out of sight, out of mind for visitors, that are a main underpinning of this extremely common observation from visitors to Chicago.

I don't want to turn this discussion into a city-vs-city thread, but all I will say is there are other cities in the country, that also have alley ways and room to hide their trash/etc but still have it on full display in public places.

Things just feel more tucked away here. Some of that is because of what you are describing, but it sure does feel like there's a mentality here of keeping things pretty because we pride ourselves on it.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by twister244

I will say is there are other cities in the country, that also have alley ways and room to hide their trash/etc

But none of the big urban US cities are anywhere remotely close to as thoroughly alleyed as Chicago is.

It's like >95% of all blocks in Chicago that are bisected by a service alley. The alley system here even extends out into most of pre-war suburbia.

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by Crawford

but dining al fresco, street vendors, impromptu park gatherings, kids playing, street festivals, etc.

Huh? Chicago has all of those things; nobody is saying otherwise. I don't equate any of that with being "unclean".

I think the fact of the matter is, you're speaking a different language in this thread vs. everyone else.

[Nouvellecosse]

It does make sense that if there are fewer street food vendors that would also be another factor resulting in less mess. People are pigs when it comes to food, dropping and spilling things, littering etc. I always thought of vendors as being a net positive since they add colour, vibrancy and variety but I suppose there are also downsides.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

Huh? Chicago has all of those things; nobody is saying otherwise. I don't equate any of that with being "unclean".

I think the fact of the matter is, you're speaking a different language in this thread vs. everyone else.

Agreed. Plus, some of the things that do make a city interesting, you can find in other neighborhoods outside of downtown. That's another thing I think people don't understand - We have a TON of diversity in the feel of neighborhoods across the city.

Lincoln Square? Beautiful low-key neighborhood with lots of families, pubs, and a cute small shopping district that feels like something out of a small town.

Logan Square? Hipsters, new restaurants, street art on buildings with a cool blvd.

Lakeview? Younger folks, dive bars, and Boystown. You walk a few blocks over and you are in Wrigleville which has its own vibe.

Want something with that old money vibe and a Restoration Hardware rooftop bar you can drink champagne and pretend to be rich? Head to Gold Coast.

Want an upscale, young money vibe with expensive restaurants, lululemon, and expensive cars? We have the West Loop.

Want a university campus that almost feels like Hogwarts? University of Chicago is here for you.

And this is barely scratching the surface when we technically have 77 official neighborhoods in the city.

[Six Corners]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Chicago is not a clean city. It isn't a U.S. outlier, in either extreme. It's a big, old, vibrant, dirty town. And I wouldn't want it clean. A clean city is a boring one. It likely means intolerance for activities that make a city interesting. No, not bums, and litterers, but dining al fresco, street vendors, impromptu park gatherings, kids playing, street festivals, etc.

This is confusing to me. How are you defining "clean"? Because if I'm dining al fresco, I'd rather there not be trash and dust blowing around the streets and bad smells permeating the air, otherwise I'd eat inside..

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Yuri

I find interesting on how rats seem so prevalent on North American cities and some European ones. São Paulo is a rather dirty city, I live Downtown which is the dirtiest part of it and I guess I've seen a rat on the street like 3x since I've moved here back in 2012.

Among the US and Canada, NYC is most notorious for their rats. They're not afraid to be out in the day or bothered by humans. And they enjoy a slice of NY style pizza

• Video Link

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I guess no one paid attention to Steely.
If Chicago's garbage is tucked away in alleyways then it's "out of sight, out of mind" for visitors. Whereas shop owners, delivery drivers see this side of Chicago all the time.

Regarding rats, I'll never forget that the city of Buffalo once had a really bad rat problem. The biggest solution was the city implemented huge plastic totes to store garbage that are large and heavy so rodents could no longer have an easy food source. Within weeks the rats were invading all the inner suburbs

New York City has also suddenly discovered plastic bins and guess what happened? The rat visibility has dramatically decreased since they started enforcing it.

https://pix11.com/news/local-news/rat-sightings-are-down-18-this-year-in-nyc-data/

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Among the US and Canada, NYC is most notorious for their rats. They're not afraid to be out in the day or bothered by humans. And they enjoy a slice of NY style pizza

If a rat showed up on São Paulo subway we would have a stampede. No joke.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

I think the fact of the matter is, you're speaking a different language in this thread vs. everyone else.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Yuri

If a rat showed up on São Paulo subway we would have a stampede. No joke.

Rats live in the NYC subway tunnels and you can pretty much always see them running along the subway trackbed below the platforms throughout the system. They also often do end up on the passenger platforms. They generally avoid interacting with humans so you're most likely to see them on the platform when it's not crowded. Healthy rats will almost always go the other way when they see a human, or they will run past you if there are limited escape options. The rats that linger around humans are likely sick or dying.

If you do see a rat on the subway platform or street, you should scan the area for others and keep an eye on their movement. If they get startled by something they are known to run into or over your feet to get out of danger. This has happened to me several times, which is why it's not a good idea to wear flips flops or sandals on the subway or in NYC after dusk. When I see them I will stomp so that they hear it in the ground and run the other way.

It's extremely rare for rats to go onto the actual subway train. I once saw a rat on a platform that looked like it was heading towards when we pulled into a station but it changed direction at the last minute. That near miss caused a massive freak out on the train car lol. But in two decades I've never seen a rat on a train car that wasn't someone's pet.

[InlandEmpire]

I'm with you DestroyCreate, I am kind of obsessed with Chicago. I do enjoy my mild weather here in Seattle, but I was taken enough with Chicago I did end up putting an offer in on a condo there about 4 years back.... lost out to another bidder, but I'm not giving up haha.

I plan to go rent an air bnb or vrbo for a month in summer and month in winter so I can see what it might be like to deal with the extreme temps.

I do love how clean and grand it feels. I am not naive enough to think the whole of Chicago is like the places I go as a tourist, but that is the case in most large cities.

The only other city I'd leave Seattle for in the US given the right circumstances is Boston.

Residents of Chicago have a lot to be proud of.

[jboy560]

InlandEmpire - if I can make a recommendation, if you’re planning to visit for a month when it’s cold, I’d suggest visiting late October-late November/early December instead of just jumping into January or February. If you go at its coldest, winter will seem so much harsher because you haven’t acclimated at all. Living here, your body adjusts to the colder weather as it gets colder and the cold isn’t as bad. I’ve gone out in winter and been shirtless on a rooftop for hours chatting and feeling totally comfortable in 35-40 degree weather. October to November or early December would give you some of that late fall to winter transition and you’ll probably acclimate a bit and get a better sense of what winter feels like when you’re living here, though if any other Chicagoans disagree please feel free to chime in.

The part of winter everyone fears is like a 1-3 week stretch during January/February that’s bitterly cold but it’s bearable if you’ve spent the winter acclimating. It’s just a good excuse to stay inside for those little stretches of polar vortex weather.

[InlandEmpire]

Thanks jboy560 - that's great advice! I'll keep that in mind, and I'm sure Chicago is a fun place to be during the holidays.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Being from Toronto (which is very similar to Chicago's climate), I don't find the winter weather bad at all. It's the length of the winters and overall sense of dreariness that sets in by late winter/early spring that get to me, on the other hand. December-February is fine, but when it starts dragging on into March or April it can get a little depressing.

Same here in New York. I'm a southern boy, so it's extra hard for me, especially in late winters/early springs.

[jpdivola]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

I genuinely don’t get why this city isn’t more of an international destination or why more coastal folks aren’t moving here en masse. Real estate is shockingly affordable by comparison. Yes, the winters are harsh, but come on—bundle up and deal with it. I'm strongly considering buying a condo here (I've seen prices for condos $200k-$400k in really nice areas) and renting it out since I can't afford real estate in LA at the moment.

I created a similar thread along these lines 10 years or so ago. I thought Chicago was massively undervalued and wondered if the city would be on the verge of a big boom. While the city has done ok in that period and seen healthy infill in the greater DT core, it hasn't boomed the way I thought it might.

The weather and perception of isolation from other destination cities or natural beauty (only sort of true with Mi/Wi nearby) are certainly factors.

But the big thing is Chicago doesn't really have a marquee global industry like NYC with finance/culture, SF with tech, Bos with Biotech/Research, DC with politics and government.

It's got great universities, the futures markets, and a well diversified, albeit somewhat old economy focused, stable of Corp HQs. But it doesn't really have a major VC/startup scene or the big anchor hometown finance or tech companies like the costal cities.

I thought costal corporations would see the cost savings from Chicago operations. And to some extent that they have. But usually they just prefer to skip right to low CoL MSAs in low tax/reg states like TX, TN, FL, GA, NC.

I'm still basically optimistic about Chicago long term. But more in a muddling through slow growth/slightly declining in national relevance kinda way.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by NYbyWAYofGA

Same here in New York. I'm a southern boy, so it's extra hard for me, especially in late winters/early springs.

Yep, the length of winters in the northern part of the country is a million times more challenging than the depths of their cold snaps, in my opinion.

The good news for Chicago and the rest of the great lakes cities is that they have some of the fastest warming winter temps due to climate change of anywhere in the country.

I'll gladly put up with a couple of polar vortexes in January/February if it means that we'll start experiencing more actual spring-like weather in March more often.


March is everything.

Historically, it sucks in Chicago.

But if it starts sucking less..........