YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

The deal was signed yesterday. Four leased A350s to be delivered on 2017.

Hadn't read that yet.. Thanks for the info. Looks like the word is they are planning on using them for expansion to North America. Since there aren't any frequencies available to them to Canada I would assume they would use them for flights to the US. Since their A332s can make the trek to YVR quite handily they would most likely use them on longer range routes such as LAX.

Originally Posted by Gordon

I think YvR should be using some sort of covered loading structures for all ground load positions( pier A & the Ac area (C)

one of gates 90-92 should be fitted an adapter so Alaska & any other Turbo prop operator has a proper loading bridge 90-92 fit an rj 700 wit out an adapter.

That would be a great idea. No need to have to walk out in the rain or cold in the winter.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Gordon

YVR seems to have critical mass as far as int'l long hall routes goes. I think it would be hard for Calgary to catch up.

YYC has very few geographical advantages compared to YVR. Also has a smaller population.

If I were an airline, I can't think of 1 good reason to go to YYC instead of YVR, but I may add it as a route.

There's only ONE direct flight to Osaka from Canada, a secondary city with a CMA the size of Toronto. What change does a 1M-pop city like Calgary have from large int'l destinations?

[CareerShow]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

YYC has very few geographical advantages compared to YVR. Also has a smaller population.

If I were an airline, I can't think of 1 good reason to go to YYC instead of YVR, but I may add it as a route.

There's only ONE direct flight to Osaka from Canada, a secondary city with a CMA the size of Toronto. What change does a 1M-pop city like Calgary have from large int'l destinations?

The only advantage YYC has on YVR is for transcontinental routes to the centre/eastern USA, as the flight is closer, as well as Caribbean and Mexico in most cases. This is probably a big reason why Westjet has many routes out of YYC that they dont serve out of YVR to the USA and other sun destination, obviously conincided with the major hub of Westjet being Calgary

[Cage]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Look at Westjet and oil-downturn-YYC. YYC passenger numbers are slightly positive despite a bad economy and i suspect that is due to WJ's (and to a lesser extent AC's) efforts to support its YYC hub.

YYC numbers are flat because the business community in Calgary continues to support necessary air travel. This is due to large number of head offices in Calgary.

Here is a good example:
In 2014 I was working for an oilfield services company with head office in Calgary plus Corporate offices in Denver, Houston, Mexico, Colombia, and Adelaide Australia. The oil recession hits and the companies revenue is cut in half. Canada and USA office operations are consolidated at the senior level. So the VP Ops in USA is let go and the VP Ops in Canada gets to spend half his time in Calgary and the other half in Houston. Same goes for the Calgary based Controller.

Contrast YYC airport with YEG where traffic reductions are occurring in the double digits. YEG's problem is that they have much smaller head office base so job reductions occurring in the companies with regional offices in Edmonton are not being replaced from an air travel perspective.

Further, Edmonton's largest employer is the provincial government, so there is reduction in government business travel to/from YEG. The NDP government has responded to oil downturn by hiring more staff in Edmonton. This makes YEG economic stats look better but does not translate into additional flying from YEG.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Cage

....
Contrast YYC airport with YEG where traffic reductions are occurring in the double digits. YEG's problem is that they have much smaller head office base so job reductions occurring in the companies with regional offices in Edmonton are not being replaced from an air travel perspective.

Further, Edmonton's largest employer is the provincial government, so there is reduction in government business travel to/from YEG. The NDP government has responded to oil downturn by hiring more staff in Edmonton. This makes YEG economic stats look better but does not translate into additional flying from YEG.

Government is a different beast.

Private sector you have:
1) travel to meet customers
2) travel to meet supplier
3) travel for internal management
4) travel for professional development etc.

For a multi-national or corporate head office 1-3 can include long-haul. No 4 maybe for the correct position and organisation. You would think video conference etc would have an impact. Perhaps it does, but there is still a lot of business travel.

In the case of a provincial government 1 to 3 will be predominately local to the province. Number 4 runs the risk of public attention if there is to much of it.

I would always expect a Government town to have more regional travel that a business centre of equal size. Ottawa may be the one exception given it does have operations everywhere.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Cage

YYC numbers are flat because the business community in Calgary continues to support necessary air travel. This is due to large number of head offices in Calgary.

Here is a good example:
In 2014 I was working for an oilfield services company with head office in Calgary plus Corporate offices in Denver, Houston, Mexico, Colombia, and Adelaide Australia. The oil recession hits and the companies revenue is cut in half. Canada and USA office operations are consolidated at the senior level. So the VP Ops in USA is let go and the VP Ops in Canada gets to spend half his time in Calgary and the other half in Houston. Same goes for the Calgary based Controller.

But it wouldn't be a stretch to say the winter westjet service to LGW is not driven by business travel, but by leisure travel.

and to a place that does involve itself heavily in oil services like dallas, AA has downgraded its YYC-DFW flight from an airbus to an embrarer ~ half its size.

I still think that a major reason why calgary has not seen contraction of passengers is because of the hub status placed by WS. compared to other airlines, putting more growth in YYC doesn't make sense in the short term, but may make sense strategically, longer term for YYC's hub airline.

What change does a 1M-pop city like Calgary have from large int'l destinations?

For transiting at YYC, a major point would be WS's existing north american network.

If WS ever joins any alliance, it would be interesting to see how the YYC/YVR balance shifts. would intl flights grow to YYC or would they stay put at YVR and WS grow its network at YVR?

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I still think that a major reason why calgary has not seen contraction of passengers is because of the hub status placed by WS. compared to other airlines, putting more growth in YYC doesn't make sense in the short term, but may make sense strategically, longer term for YYC's hub airline.

Since this is the YVR thread but the point you are making I will quickly address here. Believe it or not I think all one has to do is look at YEG's recent traffic figures to help explain why YYC is actually not contracting. YEG's transborder figures have just collapsed down almost 40% in August. Domestic travel is up very slightly by a fraction of a % though. The entire YEG-USA market hasn't collapsed but a significant number of pax would now be transiting through YYC to get to their destination. Even through the YEG market is quite a bit smaller than YYC (in terms of O&D) even in economic downturns... Calgary's unemployment now exceeds 9% but Edmonton's isn't that far behind either... YYC will have the advantage due to its location and larger O&D. It's easier for airlines to funnel domestic pax and transborder pax from YEG through YYC than vice versa.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Since this is the YVR thread but the point you are making I will quickly address here. Believe it or not I think all one has to do is look at YEG's recent traffic figures to help explain why YYC is actually not contracting. YEG's transborder figures have just collapsed down almost 40% in August. Domestic travel is up very slightly by a fraction of a % though. The entire YEG-USA market hasn't collapsed but a significant number of pax would now be transiting through YYC to get to their destination. Even through the YEG market is quite a bit smaller than YYC (in terms of O&D) even in economic downturns... Calgary's unemployment now exceeds 9% but Edmonton's isn't that far behind either... YYC will have the advantage due to its location and larger O&D. It's easier for airlines to funnel domestic pax and transborder pax from YEG through YYC than vice versa.

I suppose I can see that. Again it suggests YYC's numbers are not from ongoing innate demand from the calgary area but the hubbing of YEG traffic, among from other areas.

Maybe it was inevitable that as this current alberta recession continues YYC would emerge to be preeminent in alberta. I also suspect YVR is capturing a large chunk of YEG transfer traffic.

Why am i talking about this on a YVR thread? IMO YVR really needs to up its north amercian network. finally AC seems to be showing some love to YVR, and it's exciting to see the intl destinations but it's really the domestic/transborder additions i'll be looking out for and it's finally in play. YYC is in flux with its new terminal about to open but ongoing low oil prices. even YYZ is in flux within NA as it has been eating the lunch of rust belt airports but i suspect it is close to maximizing that market.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I suppose I can see that. Again it suggests YYC's numbers are not from ongoing innate demand from the calgary area but the hubbing of YEG traffic, among from other areas.

Maybe it was inevitable that as this current alberta recession continues YYC would emerge to be preeminent in alberta. I also suspect YVR is capturing a large chunk of YEG transfer traffic.

Why am i talking about this on a YVR thread? IMO YVR really needs to up its north amercian network. finally AC seems to be showing some love to YVR, and it's exciting to see the intl destinations but it's really the domestic/transborder additions i'll be looking out for and it's finally in play. YYC is in flux with its new terminal about to open but ongoing low oil prices. even YYZ is in flux within NA as it has been eating the lunch of rust belt airports but i suspect it is close to maximizing that market.

Yeah the YEG figures only tell part of the story plus YQR has lost all of its transborder flights other than the leisure routes on Westjet. YYC is the most natural transfer point.

As for YVR what really amazes me is that YVR has this incredible international network by so many carriers without a "massive" North American network. Numbers don't lie though, there are very few unserved YVR-USA markets left that are viable. Also, there are very few unserved domestic routes that would be big enough to have nonstop service.

[Johnny Aussie]

AA is adding a second flight to PHX again for 3 1/2 weeks from the 15 Dec 16 - 8 Jan 17. Last winter AA operated this route twice daily for the entire winter.

The extra flight:

AA604 PHX 1115 - 1328 YVR 319 D
AA1851 YVR 1429 - 1836 PHX 319 D

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Yeah the YEG figures only tell part of the story plus YQR has lost all of its transborder flights other than the leisure routes on Westjet. YYC is the most natural transfer point.

Unless of course you're going to MSP or ORD....or really anywhere East. For the closer two, YWG makes far more sense. For most further places, YYZ is better, and better connected.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Yeah the YEG figures only tell part of the story plus YQR has lost all of its transborder flights other than the leisure routes on Westjet. YYC is the most natural transfer point.

As for YVR what really amazes me is that YVR has this incredible international network by so many carriers without a "massive" North American network. Numbers don't lie though, there are very few unserved YVR-USA markets left that are viable. Also, there are very few unserved domestic routes that would be big enough to have nonstop service.

IMO the feather in YVR's NA cap would be IAD/DCA. this would be a natural fit for the existing network and a magnet for bilateral transfer traffic.

I also suspect other low hanging fruit would be SLC and ABQ. ABQ/Santa Fe's innate draw and lack of overseas connections IMO make this an easy gimmie for YVR-ABQ link. But I also think you're right about diminishing returns for AC on other NA destinations.

If we get nonstop to SE Asia and further Australia connections (MEL), this would be a further magnet for eastern US connections, but I'd be happy if we can maintain what we have (new additions DFW, ORD, SJC, SAN) and add on Washington DC.

[Gordon]

We Do have SLC delta\skywest. I think they use a CRJ 900

Has anyone seen how the Pier a work is progressing?

[CareerShow]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

AA is adding a second flight to PHX again for 3 1/2 weeks from the 15 Dec 16 - 8 Jan 17. Last winter AA operated this route twice daily for the entire winter.

The extra flight:

AA604 PHX 1115 - 1328 YVR 319 D
AA1851 YVR 1429 - 1836 PHX 319 D

So are they downgrading this year to one daily for most of the winter?

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Gordon

We Do have SLC delta\skywest. I think they use a CRJ 900

Has anyone seen how the Pier a work is progressing?

Pier a? Hasn't that been finished for well over a year?

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Gordon

We Do have SLC delta\skywest. I think they use a CRJ 900

Sorry I wasn't clear, but all those flights/network in that post would be AC's.

[CareerShow]

Does anyone know how many flight attendants AC have on their CRA 700's? I would guess three but by law they only have to have 2 right? But my thinking has been with only 2 flight attendants it would be hard to manage Transport Canada's new regulation of having 2 people in the flight deck at all times.

[Orcair]

Originally Posted by CareerShow

Does anyone know how many flight attendants AC have on their CRA 700's? I would guess three but by law they only have to have 2 right? But my thinking has been with only 2 flight attendants it would be hard to manage Transport Canada's new regulation of having 2 people in the flight deck at all times.

When I flew a CRA from YUL-YOW, there were only 2. That being said, the longer flights to Texas might be different...? But given that it is AC delegating to Jazz, I'm sure its the minimum

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by CareerShow

So are they downgrading this year to one daily for most of the winter?

Yes. AA has really slashed and burned a lot of capacity in Western Canada.

YVR loses one daily PHX for most of the winter. So the winter sched is 2 daily mainline 738s to DFW, a daily 738 to PHX (plus the extra flight mentioned above) and 2 daily E75s to LAX.

YYC has lost PHX completely and will now be served with only two daily E75s to DFW downgauged from 2 daily mainline 319s.

YEG has lost DFW and LAX nonstops and will be down to a sole daily CR9 to PHX this winter.

[Johnny Aussie]

http://www.yvr2037.ca/growth/documents/3855/download

A lot is rehashed info but this is a pretty good summary.

Most people seem interested about terminal expansion. Starts at page 11.

Shouldn't be long before an actual announcement is made.

I have been made aware that between about 10:00 and 14:00 there will be no available international gates. So until an expansion is completed any further additions to International flights will have to be outside these hours. Still plenty of opportunities for late night flights to Asia and South Pacific.