Great Lakes Cities - Page 49

Centropolis · #**961** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 3:30 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by softee

You really think those two areas look alike? The Kensington Market area is far denser both structurally and in terms of population density. Short North looks spacious and serene in comparison.

you grabbed it there. we sprawled out from fear of population overload. i don't think that ontario had that freakout.

Docere · #**962** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 3:51 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

those that looks like Short north, columbus, not queens or brooklyn IMO.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9905...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9836...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9391...7i13312!8i6656

These look nothing like Kensington Market at all.

Looks more like Ottawa or London (Ontario) than Toronto.

Mister F · #**963** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 4:02 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by softee

You really think those two areas look alike? The Kensington Market area is far denser both structurally and in terms of population density. Short North looks spacious and serene in comparison.

dc_denizen's MO is to try to take Toronto down a peg by comparing it to cities and neighbourhoods that are smaller, less dense, and/or more suburban. He's been at it for years.

north 42 · #**964** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 12:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

These look nothing like Kensington Market at all.

Looks more like Ottawa or London (Ontario) than Toronto.

Exactly! Those look nothing like Kensington Market!

dc_denizen · #**965** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 1:22 PM**

You guys take a lot of umbrage at being compared with a Midwestern city.

We were talking about the architecture of 19th century districts, so sprawl and suburbs are irrelevant.

Those shots of Toronto look a lot more like german village and short north in Columbus than they resemble any parts of Brooklyn.

And fyi I personally prefer the Midwestern vernacular to the northeastern.

shappy · #**966** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 3:05 PM**

I might be wrong but I really don't think that's the case. People are disagreeing with your comparison. And a non local commented the street level looks like Brooklyn or Queens (I personally disagree) so you seem to think the intention is to pass Kensington off as Brooklyn.

It's pretty clear Toronto more closely resembles a US Midwestern city than a US North Eastern one in built form (culturally it's another matter entirely). But besides all that it's a Canadian city and its history is obviously reflected in its appearance which is different than either of those US regions (not sure why this is so difficult for most people to grasp...)

Regarding your comparison, here's a bird's eye view at same scale:

So yeah... no.

Short North

Kensington

pj3000 · #**967** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 3:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

they are kind of gangling, like graying teenage basketball players waiting to fill out with muscle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

monoliths and promise. midwesternism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

it's all tight on the street, which is satisfying, and the contrast is instructive. midwesternism is an early pulling away from the street and/or into the air.

You're a lovely poet

pj3000 · #**968** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 4:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shappy

It's pretty clear Toronto more closely resembles a US Midwestern city than a US North Eastern one in built form (culturally it's another matter entirely).

I'm going to keep beating this drum until we stop using these generalizations on here...

We have to stop with the "this looks like a Midwestern city" or "this looks llike a Northeastern city"... as if a single defining characteristic exists which will provide the distinct contrast between the two overly-broad descriptors.

Toronto can fully pass for both a Midwestern city and Northeastern city, depending on which part of these very vast regions we are talking about.

Northeastern does NOT equal brick rowhouse.

Midwestern does NOT equal wood-framed detached.

Large parts of Northeastern urban neighborhoods are comprised of a wood-framed detached vernacular, or a similar variation thereof.

Large parst of Midwestern urban neighborhoods are comprised of a brick rowhouse vernacular, or a similar variation thereof.

softee · #**969** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 5:11 PM**

Someone on another forum once said that Kensington looked like Brady Street in Milwaukee, so of course I went on streetview to have a look, and no, other than having a few colourful storefronts, it wasn't much at all like Kensington in terms of built form and cramped, narrow feel. Kensington Market is pretty unique.

Brady Street: https://goo.gl/maps/GPA2qKEA5GL2

dc_denizen · #**970** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 5:13 PM**

what about this area of cincinnati?

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1316...7i13312!8i6656

or maybe Oakland+Shadyside, Pittsburgh?

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4381...7i13312!8i6656

shappy · #**971** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 5:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

I'm going to keep beating this drum until we stop using these generalizations on here...

We have to stop with the "this looks like a Midwestern city" or "this looks llike a Northeastern city"... as if a single defining characteristic exists which will provide the distinct contrast between the two overly-broad descriptors.

Toronto can fully pass for both a Midwestern city and Northeastern city, depending on which part of these very vast regions we are talking about.

Northeastern does NOT equal brick rowhouse.

Midwestern does NOT equal wood-framed detached.

Large parts of Northeastern urban neighborhoods are comprised of a wood-framed detached vernacular, or a similar variation thereof.

Large parst of Midwestern urban neighborhoods are comprised of a brick rowhouse vernacular, or a similar variation thereof.

I'm on board with that... to a degree. There are elements of built environment, layout, function, culture, etc that more closely align with a region. Obviously it's a sliding scale and elements of one will be found in the other. Don't think it's controversial to suggest Toronto in built environment more closely resembles one region over another. Again, with quite a few caveats but if we're comparing...

shappy · #**972** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 6:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

what about this area of cincinnati?

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1316...7i13312!8i6656

or maybe Oakland+Shadyside, Pittsburgh?

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4381...7i13312!8i6656

The Pittsburgh one has a resemblance to Kensington's residential look:
https://goo.gl/maps/QGe7YDTGrhD2

But the heart of the neighbourhood is this which doesn't resemble any of what you've posted:
https://goo.gl/maps/FKu9LFC69y32

Edit: Now we're talking... https://goo.gl/maps/1NwHsxQkR2E2

Crawford · #**973** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 6:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shappy

It's pretty clear Toronto more closely resembles a US Midwestern city than a US North Eastern one in built form (culturally it's another matter entirely). But besides all that it's a Canadian city and its history is obviously reflected in its appearance which is different than either of those US regions (not sure why this is so difficult for most people to grasp...)

Yes. All this. Toronto more closely resembles Midwestern cities, obviously, given location and development timeline. But it's a Canadian city, and Canadian cities have their own development quirks, such as smaller units and more multifamily.

And Toronto, like an LA, is a huge immigration magnet with major affordability issues, unlike any U.S. Midwestern cities, so obviously has a more packed-in feel than the Midwest.

Overall, Toronto looks more like a Short North than a Brooklyn, but a bizzaroland Short North where SFHs are $1.5 million, where the majority of residents are immigrants and where the govt. strongly incentives urban living.

Crawford · #**974** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 6:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

I
Large parts of Northeastern urban neighborhoods are comprised of a wood-framed detached vernacular, or a similar variation thereof.

Large parst of Midwestern urban neighborhoods are comprised of a brick rowhouse vernacular, or a similar variation thereof.

One should characterize regions by generalizations (ie typical landscapes), not exceptions.

The Northeast Corridor, generally speaking, is characterized by tighter urban form and more bricky, rowhouse-y stock. The urban Midwest is, overall, very different. NYC and Philly, at street level, feel very different than Chicago and Milwaukee.

Obvious differences would include narrower streets, wider sidewalks, higher building coverage, fewer setbacks, more attached structures, older building stock, more brick, etc.

Docere · #**975** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 6:55 PM**

The Pittsburgh photo does resemble the Victorian neighborhoods of Toronto quite a bit.

dc_denizen · #**976** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 7:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shappy

The Pittsburgh one has a resemblance to Kensington's residential look:
https://goo.gl/maps/QGe7YDTGrhD2

But the heart of the neighbourhood is this which doesn't resemble any of what you've posted:
https://goo.gl/maps/FKu9LFC69y32

Edit: Now we're talking... https://goo.gl/maps/1NwHsxQkR2E2

Ok, I see and agree that the kensington market business district does look very different from downtown Oakland...the residential vernacular is eeriely similar of course.

kensington (the commercial area) looks like camden, london a bit. and yes, the french quarter has some resemblance too.

Docere · #**977** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 8:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

How about these?

pj3000 · #**978** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 8:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shappy

I'm on board with that... to a degree. There are elements of built environment, layout, function, culture, etc that more closely align with a region. Obviously it's a sliding scale and elements of one will be found in the other. Don't think it's controversial to suggest Toronto in built environment more closely resembles one region over another. Again, with quite a few caveats but if we're comparing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

One should characterize regions by generalizations (ie typical landscapes), not exceptions.

The Northeast Corridor, generally speaking, is characterized by tighter urban form and more bricky, rowhouse-y stock. The urban Midwest is, overall, very different. NYC and Philly, at street level, feel very different than Chicago and Milwaukee.

Obvious differences would include narrower streets, wider sidewalks, higher building coverage, fewer setbacks, more attached structures, older building stock, more brick, etc.

Urban Midwest:

This is what the majority of inner city neighborhoods look like in the Midwestern city of New Haven, Connecticut.

One could easily substitute New Haven in the above sentence with Manchester, NH or Springfield, MA or...

And this is not a case of picking and choosing certain neighborhoods... this is what most of the inner city residential neighborhoods look like... take a cruise throughout many Northeastern cities for yourself.

IrishIllini · #**979** Posted **Feb 24, 2018, 10:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

One should characterize regions by generalizations (ie typical landscapes), not exceptions.

The Northeast Corridor, generally speaking, is characterized by tighter urban form and more bricky, rowhouse-y stock. The urban Midwest is, overall, very different. NYC and Philly, at street level, feel very different than Chicago and Milwaukee.

Obvious differences would include narrower streets, wider sidewalks, higher building coverage, fewer setbacks, more attached structures, older building stock, more brick, etc.

Crawford, there are times when I want to agree with you, but you contradict yourself so often it's hard for me to agree with you even when I see where you're coming from. Your clear disdain for the Midwest is hard to ignore.

St. Louis (before urban renewal) had row homes for days. Same with Cincinnati. Chicago is mostly brick, detached construction, but before the fire, there were row homes constructed of brick. St. Louis has a lot of brick construction as well. East St. Louis, IL was the same way...

I feel you're only throwing out the word "bricky" after seeing a certain poster with moderator powers post the same thing. You're nowhere near as coy as you may think.

dc_denizen · #**980** Posted **Feb 25, 2018, 12:54 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

How about these?

very nice! those actually give me a DC vibe.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9170...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9170...7i13312!8i6656

but this look like pittsburgh/madison/upstate NY city/maybe st louis? to me.

but I get the 'slightly older than detroit/cleveland' typology now. the inner core of toronto seems to have less of the machine-era workers cottages for immigrants, black people, and southern migrants, and looks more like a bricky St louis/albany/syracuse/rochester/pittsburgh, maybe cincy (pre-'renewal'). but if you go outside of the core/western part of the inner city I see more resemblance to the great lakes cities.