Rail-based Transit Discussion

[someone123]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

PS: I did a bit of research and I see that some TTC streetcar routes have been made into right-of-way routes such as St. Clair 512 and Spadina 510 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/512_St._Clair, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/510_Spadina. These streetcar routes are what many would consider to be LRT instead of traditional streetcar routes that share the street lanes with cars. However, the same concept could be done with buses for BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) routes.

I think streetcars and LRT have a lot of "soft" advantages over buses that tend to be overlooked when comparing transit options. They're more comfortable, typically electric (quieter and more flexible in terms of energy source), and they are seen as more desirable. They seem to generate more spin-off investment in neighbourhoods. On the Peninsula, I think good streetcar or LRT service would have a much bigger impact on development than higher frequency bus service. Discretionary riders often don't care as much about buses even if they run at high frequencies.

The Toronto comparison is dangerous because Toronto also has a subway system. The streetcars there serve a different purpose and most of the lines are older and do not use the sort of technology that would be used in a new streetcar system in Halifax.

The issue of mixed traffic vs. dedicated right of ways is mostly orthogonal to the choice of which technology to use. Streetcars in mixed traffic are a bit more constrained than buses but buses are also terrible in heavy traffic. When they run in the same traffic as cars but also have more stops they are always going to be worse than private vehicles and their appeal will be limited.

Halifax will only start to have good transit service if some lanes are dedicated exclusively to some form of transit, whether it's buses or trains. Something like the SkyTrain or a subway is likely unaffordable, but I bet a line with a mix of dedicated surface lanes, signal priority, and some short tunnels or overpasses would work out well. As we all know, Halifax also already has many underused rail corridors.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I don't really see the advantage unless you are thinking of having lanes specifically for streetcars that motor vehicles are restricted from using. I have ridden on the Toronto streetcar system and it is as slow or even slower than buses. When driving my car in Toronto it means navigating over steel tracks in the street and concrete islands associated with the streetcar. There doesn't seem to be much love for the streetcar system in Toronto.

Definitely--there's no advantage to a streetcar system over buses except capacity. Since Halifax's buses don't seem especially over-burdened, there wouldn't much point in incurring the cost of installing streetcar infrastructure.

Unless, of course, it were to operate on a right-of-way, avoiding mixed traffic except at intersections (and even then, signal priority would be useful in boosting speed). That would be a whole different story, but that, of course, is getting into light-rail territory.

[halifaxboyns]

xanaxanax> For a full system to recreate Halifax's previous system; I agree likely $600 Million +? Skryers comments from the Vancouver forum are interesting and I think the video I provided earlier from E squared really points out the issue regarding the BRT versus LRT debate, it's a matter of perception on all sides.

Developers see BRT with a lower perception because if they run on the roads then they can be changed easily. They might have a lesser dislike if it's dedicated busways like Ottawa? You would have a significant challenge doing that in Halifax because of limited room so it would likely result in taking existing streets and turning them into busways only or a dedicated lane. The only streets that may have capacity to give up a lane is Robie, Barrington or Quinpool - you've now limited your routes. The other challenge is getting a busway off the Peninsula - if the railcut is paved, then the challenges are: where is the entry/exit point to DT and how far is it from the key employment areas that generate riders (Dal/SMU/Hospitals)? The further away, the more time is needed to get the bus to those rides, or a connection is required. Where does the exit/entry point off the peninsula occur? If at West End Mall; you'll need to develop a transit station there and get access to private land with an easement or something. You also need CN on board to pave the rail cut, setup signalling and all that - given the reluctance; this might be a project that takes forever.

With embedded rail LRT (like in the video) - the commitment is absolute. Once the rail is in the ground, it's not likely going to change (no easily or with out a lot of extra $). So I can't just come along and suddenly move the service to another street - once I pick the street it goes on and it's built, it's built. For developers, once that commitment is made they see the value and commit to building - hence the reason why Portland's 90 million $ streetcar (90's $) generated $3 billion in private investment - the commitment of the rail created interest by private land owners.

Portland's streetcar was also built because of the need for "a circulator for distances just to far to walk" (quote from the E squared video). So really it was about facilitating movement over slightly longer distances than would be comfortable to walk. Two examples I think explain this: Let's say Agricola is redeveloped. Person #1 is a student at the NSCC in the North End on Leeds; Person #2 works in an office building on Hollis Street. For both, the distance may be slightly outside their comfort zone to walk (extra hills, weather, being lazy, blah blah blah (insert additional excuses here)) - so with a streetcar, both can jump on, ride it in comfort and get to their destination. If it was setup on Agricola with queue jumping systems along key intersections the timing to their destination would be quite good. Please don't think these two examples are justification in anyway for a streetcar, just trying to explain the comment from the video.

All that said; BRT does serve a good purpose in HRM and the utilization of the BRT along Portland street is quite telling. Considering that service levels from Portland Hills to Penhorn are on the order of rapid transit levels (LRT/Subway style level of service) and the loads carried along it are quite high, I would say this shows a potential for LRT along this route. Whether that is an LRT from Portland Hills to Penhorn and across on the future 3rd crossing or through DT Dartmouth and MacDonald to Downtown - the point stands (the second option might do even better because of connection potential at the Bridge Terminal).

We can look to the B-lines in Vancouver to see that. The 98 B-line ran from Richmond to Downtown Vancouver (although along Granville Street) and no matter what time of day I'd be in town using it - it was always busy. Anecdotal, but I'm sure rider counts will back me up. The 99 B-line along Broadway is also heavily used because of serving U BC. Now despite moving the Canada Line to Cambie; the ridership is still quite high (and growing). While I do not have the passenger stats, I would bet good money that the routes along Broadway would show sufficient ridership to support rapid transit (LRT/subway) and I believe it's being looked at already. If the BRT at Portland Hills is doing the same - I'd say you have your first LRT pretty much decided already.

[MalcolmTucker]

The Portland streetcar runs so infrequently and so slowly I am surprised anyone except captive riders take it at all.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The Portland streetcar runs so infrequently and so slowly I am surprised anyone except captive riders take it at all.

Portland's planners seem to have put a lot of emphasis on building a collection of attractive inner-city neighbourhoods, and I think the streetcars have been an important part of that, but Portland's transit system doesn't seem nearly as useful as Vancouver's even though the two cities are around the same size.

I've often wondered if Halifax could afford to build a small automated system similar to the SkyTrain but perhaps with some at-grade sections to keep costs down.

Here's an interesting article on Lausanne's M2 line (in French): http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/archive/...ter_au_M2.html

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausanne_Metro#Line_M2

This is a fully-automated line 6 kilometres long and 90% underground that cost only $750M. Greater Lausanne has a population of 336,000.

For a metro system to a viable option in Halifax it would probably have to be under $500M, with both the province and federal government chipping in.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

Portland's planners seem to have put a lot of emphasis on building a collection of attractive inner-city neighbourhoods, and I think the streetcars have been an important part of that, but Portland's transit system doesn't seem nearly as useful as Vancouver's even though the two cities are around the same size.

I've often wondered if Halifax could afford to build a small automated system similar to the SkyTrain but perhaps with some at-grade sections to keep costs down.

Here's an interesting article on Lausanne's M2 line (in French): http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/archive/...ter_au_M2.html

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausanne_Metro#Line_M2

This is a fully-automated line 6 kilometres long and 90% underground that cost only $750M. Greater Lausanne has a population of 336,000.

For a metro system to a viable option in Halifax it would probably have to be under $500M, with both the province and federal government chipping in.

That is an interesting point and Malcolm's comment is well taken - I'm not suggesting we just take the Portland system and plunk it into Halifax (it should be whatever works for Halifax). But that said; it should be some sort of multi-modal approach. We keep forgetting to talk about the possibility of the harbour and fast ferries. Yes, I realize there are speed limits but if we start the discussion now; they can change.

Agree with you someone123 - there would likely have to be a large downtown underground section but if there is a chance to do a lot at grade then good. The added benefit of a Skytrain automated system is that if there were a union strike; it would still be running.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The added benefit of a Skytrain automated system is that if there were a union strike; it would still be running.

I don't think this is correct. The SkyTrain has people monitoring and operating the system, security, attendants, cleaning staff, mechanics/maintenance workers, etc. and I think most or all of them belong to CUPE. If they went on strike the trains would stop (except perhaps the Canada Line, which I think is operated independently).

The biggest advantage for automated trains I can see for Halifax is that it would be relatively cheap to run a large number of small trains at high frequencies. This is less cost-effective when you need one or more people working on each train. Halifax's main transit routes meanwhile probably aren't busy enough to fill even 4-car trains running every 2-5 minutes outside of rush hour.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The added benefit of a Skytrain automated system is that if there were a union strike; it would still be running.

Lol they just press "play" and walk away .

In all seriousness though, from my point of view it looks like downtown needs to develop more before LRT/BRT would pay off anyways. It also depends on how fast the city is growing and where it is growing.

Off-Topic: Once one building over 30 floors gets pushed through in downtown, then the area is going to start to grow up real fast, methinks. A lot of beautiful Ocean views there .

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think this is correct. The SkyTrain has people monitoring and operating the system, security, attendants, cleaning staff, mechanics/maintenance workers, etc. and I think most or all of them belong to CUPE. If they went on strike the trains would stop (except perhaps the Canada Line, which I think is operated independently).

The cleaners and mechanics tend to be under different unions (if any at all) - typically the Machinist Union (is that the right name?). CUPE typically ends up with the cleaning staff but the attendee staff in the office are management; at least that's the way I'm told it runs here in YYC.

[hfx_chris]

I would prefer to see certain streets in the downtown area either turned into dedicated bus/pedestrian streets, or have parking removed on some streets and turn that into a bus lane. Create a smaller scale OC Transpo Transitway around the peninsula.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I would prefer to see certain streets in the downtown area either turned into dedicated bus/pedestrian streets, or have parking removed on some streets and turn that into a bus lane. Create a smaller scale OC Transpo Transitway around the peninsula.

Any examples of which streets should be bus only?

Winnipeg sort of has something similar downtown, with a street mostly dedicated to buses only (graham avenue if I remember correctly). So it isn't something that hasn't been done before.

[hfx_chris]

If it could be tied in with a Cogswell Interchange redevelopment, I think Granville could work as a transit/pedestrian street. Access to the parkade could be maintained with Blowers. There would also need to be signals at Salter and Barrington to allow buses to return to Barrington.

While I'm thinking about it, I also think more buses could make use of Brunswick and Sackville to get to the hospital, instead of having every route take Spring Garden and Barrington.

[swimmer_spe]

Part of the problem is that there is lack of any real development on either side of the harbour between Halifax/Dartmouth and Bedford.

Once the development gets to the point where it spills over the 102 and the 118, then there will be enough development that would make this a no brainer.

Some of the major buses do run "standing room only".

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Part of the problem is that there is lack of any real development on either side of the harbour between Halifax/Dartmouth and Bedford.

Once the development gets to the point where it spills over the 102 and the 118, then there will be enough development that would make this a no brainer.

Some of the major buses do run "standing room only".

It's happening on the Halifax side - the CF magazine means it cannot and will not happen on the Dartmouth side - 100 years of explosives in the woods, several magazine accidents means that land is off limits. Linking the Dartmouth to Bedford with development will have to happen inland along the 107 extension.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

If it could be tied in with a Cogswell Interchange redevelopment, I think Granville could work as a transit/pedestrian street. Access to the parkade could be maintained with Blowers. There would also need to be signals at Salter and Barrington to allow buses to return to Barrington.

While I'm thinking about it, I also think more buses could make use of Brunswick and Sackville to get to the hospital, instead of having every route take Spring Garden and Barrington.

Given the pedestrian plaza between Cogswell and Duke and the fact that the triangle lands (owned by sobeys) lie square between them, I think you will have trouble connecting the two even once the Cogswell Interchange is dealt with.

The other issue I see with Granville is that it stops at Salter because of Maritime Centre. While Salter is two way; you'd have to know how the routes would get back up to SGR or down to the south end. That small block between Granville and Barrington is pretty tight as is. I can't imagine trying to get an articulated bus up through there...that would be interesting.

My personal preference would be to remove a lane of street parking on Hollis and Lower Water, creating an inbound and outbound lane. My preference would be that this be used for bus or a future streetcar/lrt (preferably one that is low floor, like the Portland Streetcar, thus reducing the need for glorified stations like what Calgary has - the lrt could just pull up to the curb). This way, only one area of parking is removed; the lane on the side of the Raddison hotel - the opposite side of the street can maintain street parking except during peak hours of the inbound rush. The opposite would be the case for Lower Water - remove any parking for the lane next to the curb on the side of the Muesum and parking allowed on the opposite curb site except during the afternoon rush.

By using these two routes you get the transit buses onto the core office areas and then can loop back down by the Westin. It may help take some bus pressure off of Barrington, depending on if an LRT/streetcar was used.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

It's happening on the Halifax side - the CF magazine means it cannot and will not happen on the Dartmouth side - 100 years of explosives in the woods, several magazine accidents means that land is off limits. Linking the Dartmouth to Bedford with development will have to happen inland along the 107 extension.

Agreed - would love to see the CF magazine go; but likely not happening. Wouldn't want someone trying to build a foundation to blow up! That would be...unfortunate.

The densification around Wrights Cove though is very interesting, particularly at the bottom of Akerley. Might be a prime location to consider a fast ferry hub to downtown and do a plan to encourage some class B (or maybe even Class A) office development with mixed use residential/retail. I'd only suggest that once we get a better sense of the office demand and the desire for mixed use in the downtown.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

It's happening on the Halifax side - the CF magazine means it cannot and will not happen on the Dartmouth side - 100 years of explosives in the woods, several magazine accidents means that land is off limits. Linking the Dartmouth to Bedford with development will have to happen inland along the 107 extension.

I know about the lack of ability to develop near the Magazine.

However, that does not mean it wont be developed east of Anderson Lake.

Does anyone know what the buffer is?

[xanaxanax]

Doesn't really give any new information but The tender for a feasibility study on rail service from Halifax to Windsor Junction and Enfield has been posted http://metronews.ca/news/halifax/102...dy-in-halifax/

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

Doesn't really give any new information but The tender for a feasibility study on rail service from Halifax to Windsor Junction and Enfield has been posted http://metronews.ca/news/halifax/102...dy-in-halifax/

That looks promising.

5 years from now, they will say something like: sorry, but it will not work with the population base.

[Hali87]

I had the chance to see Bob Bjerke (Halifax's new chief planner) give a presentation and Q&A the other day - he seems very open to new ideas and I'm optimistic that he would explore the option of LRT or something similar. It would be nice to have some discussion around the idea of rail-based transit (or true BRT) other than beating the dead horse that is the Windsor Junction to Hollis commuter line.