[St. John's] The Official Project Thread

[NLJP]

Originally Posted by Architype

Here is a photo approximation showing one view of how the two new projects would look if built, please excuse the imperfections. From this angle Fortis blocks the view of the courthouse, and Woolworth's blocks the view of the Delta Hotel. Keep in mind the Woolworth's design is most likely not finalized.


Source - photo by me

One thing I noticed is that available harbourfront property is very limited. If these two were built, there would be only three remaining harbourfront sites west of Prescott which could potentially accomodate large buildings, regardless of height (and all are presently occupied). With this in mind, the quality of the designs should be considered very carefully.

Thanks for the pic!

[niccanning]

Great picture.

[MrChills]

Originally Posted by Architype

Here is a photo approximation showing one view of how the two new projects would look if built, please excuse the imperfections. From this angle Fortis blocks the view of the courthouse, and Woolworth's blocks the view of the Delta Hotel. Keep in mind the Woolworth's design is most likely not finalized.


Source - photo by me

One thing I noticed is that available harbourfront property is very limited. If these two were built, there would be only three remaining harbourfront sites west of Prescott which could potentially accomodate large buildings, regardless of height (and all are presently occupied). With this in mind, the quality of the designs should be considered very carefully.

Nice job! Do you mind if I repost this on SignalBlog.ca?

[Architype]

Originally Posted by MrChills

Nice job! Do you mind if I repost this on SignalBlog.ca?

^ I was going to do some more work on it if I find time, but you can use it as is if you want.

Thanks everyone, glad you liked the pic.

Edit: I thought I should sum up about these developments with this (which most people have figured out anyway):

Pros:

• The addition of these buildings create more of a "skyline" which represents St. John's as a larger, competitive, and more modern city.
• It provides a more adequate supply of class A office space in prime locations, which is in short supply, plus jobs and an economic boost.

Cons:

• The addition of the Fortis development in particular will start to deplete the stock of heritage buildings and harmonious streetscape on the South side of Water Street, and set a precident which could result in more demolition on the harbourfront, plus loss of views from other parts of the downtown area.

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by Architype;4716057
Edit: I thought I should sum up about these developments with this (which most people have figured out anyway):

Pros:[LIST

[*]The addition of these buildings create more of a "skyline" which represents St. John's as a larger, competitive, and more modern city.[*]It provides a more adequate supply of class A office space in prime locations, which is in short supply, plus jobs and an economic boost.[/LIST]Cons:

• The addition of the Fortis development in particular will start to deplete the stock of heritage buildings and harmonious streetscape on the South side of Water Street, and set a precident which could result in more demolition on the harbourfront, plus loss of views from other parts of the downtown area.

yeah i completely agree with that ... i think it really would represent st. john's as a larger more modern city. I am personaly torn by it all because if we do make the modern district in the west end of downtown will that bulk of tall modern buildings also give a large modern feel to the city? and i really do think that if they make sure that on water street it looks and feels as historic as possible with making the vasade look like seperate buildings and look more historic on the street ... then i think that would be a cool effect (modern at first glance but in the streets is a historic world with the modernity growing up behind it) i think that would be a unique and cool effect that this fortis proposal i think is trying to do (with a bit more work). so i'm gonna sit back and see what happens ...

i would be against it if it were putting up just a glass wall on water street but if it makes that historic street feel on the ground then i think it will cause a cool effect ... and i do feel for peoples veiws but you cant expect to have the same veiw in the downtown of a capital city forever.. and this whole veiw of a modern skyline would be greatly appreciated in many cities ...

[PoscStudent]

I've noticed in other cities, like Halifax & Calgary for example, that their buildings, even when just proposals, are always named but this is not usually done for propsals put forward in St. John's. I find it makes alot of sense and makes it easy to know what is what, does anyone know if it is something other cities ask for or is it just something the developers do?

[Architype]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

I've noticed in other cities, like Halifax & Calgary for example, that their buildings, even when just proposals, are always named but this is not usually done for propsals put forward in St. John's. I find it makes alot of sense and makes it easy to know what is what, does anyone know if it is something other cities ask for or is it just something the developers do?

I think it's not that uncommon for office buildings to not have a name until later, unless it is that of an anchor tenant or owner, and to just go by the address, even after construction is finished. Sometimes the address is the actual name.

The names however, are more important in the case of condo developments for marketing purposes where they are often sold to the public well before construction begins.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^I think it's a statement that the developers really believe that things aren't going anywhere because it would just be a waste of effort and resources naming and marketing a proposal here. Sorry, my sarcasm and cynicism is way off the charts this morning.

Sigh. If we can all see the harbour from our front stoop than what's the point of venturing down to the harbour? Could St. John's think along the lines of Hong Kong and Vancouver about the preservation of sight lines from some points instead of just nothing that blocks any tiny portion of water view?

Doubtful.

Maybe Mt. Pearl and Paradise should make a move towards becoming the new commercial hub of the region and really annoy St. John's.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

^Maybe Mt. Pearl and Paradise should make a move towards becoming the new commercial hub of the region and really annoy St. John's.

I agree, if St. John's had some competition on their hands they wouldn't be long approving some developments but right it's either you build it by our rules or you don't build it at all.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

^I think it's a statement that the developers really believe that things aren't going anywhere because it would just be a waste of effort and resources naming and marketing a proposal here. . . .Maybe Mt. Pearl and Paradise should make a move towards becoming the new commercial hub of the region and really annoy St. John's.

I think something will be built at least at the Woolworth's site, they will allow the 11 or 12 storeys there. If you developed every available non-heritage site (within reason) along the harbour according to the four storey rule I'm guessing you would end up with not much more total square footage then is contained now in Atlantic Place (I did a quick calculation - about 300,000 sq ft), and If you build in Mt Pearl or some similar area outside downtown it would be considered class B office space.

However, with the new economy, St. John's should have world class architecture, or at least something that would be admired in New York, Vancouver, Halifax or in European cities.

[PoscStudent]

A plus side of downtown for developers, though not for the public/employees, is the need for a parking garage. Developers can make a lot of money from a parking garage, I estimated before that the city would make around a million dollars a year with their parking garage in the proposed Woolworth site.

Companies obviously want to be downtown and with good reason, but it is to bad theres no competetion from another community so that the city wouldn't have all the "power" when proposals are put forward. Shannie Duff says they won't go to Halifax because they want to be in Newfoundland and Labrador(which I don't really believe is true), but they would go to Mount Pearl or Paradise if those communities had a good area for class A office towers that offered what downtown does.

[jeddy1989]

Thinking about it there is one thing that i find a bit anoying in the argument against tall buildings ... i've hear people say that tall buildings are not what makes a city valuable... i have to disagree with that to an extent ... i mean there definatly are MANY factors that go into the image of a city in showing success and giving a city validity, however to completely discredit tall buildings as a part of this i think is an untrue way of thinkinging... the way i see it is that the tall buildings that stand out now adays in modern times are signs of success and prosperity ... like in the past large and elborate cathedrals were ways to show the world that you're city was a competitor in the world and the larger and more elaborate palaces and cathedrals you had the more impressive you looked in teh eyes of neighbouring cities and countries (especialy in capitals which represent a whole political state) i think the skycrapers and highrises are in a sense the modern day palaces and cathedrals (we did very well in this aspect in the past with the basilica) and nowadays i know its more of a mixture of factors with historic preservation and quality of community but i don't think you can ignore the importance of urbanization and the sense of "city" and importance a larger city feeling give to a region in conjunction with all the other great factors we already have.

[HomeInMyShoes]

I disagree with the economy Architype. Sure the economy is good, but the economics of builidng a building means its going to have less money put into design and materials if they can't build high enough to recoup the costs of land and construction. I've seen height restrictions in other cities create an impossibility in getting world-class or even third-world class structures designed and proposed.

I completely agree that tall buildings do not necessarily mean good urban design or a quality streetscape. In fact it often works contrary and the scale of the buildings in downtown St. John's is quite wonderful. The issue I'm seeing is that downtown needs some more commercial space, but designing and building it is facing an economic conundrum. Especially when we want a quality design to interface both the harbour, Water Street as well as preserving views and character.

Loosening the height restriction, especially around the West end might lead to some more innovative designs as recouping development costs would not be so difficult.

[PoscStudent]

Demolition damage
Neighbouring properties feel the fallout as building dismantled; still they're glad to see it go

TERRY ROBERTS
The Telegram


A landmark building in the centre of St. John's is being flattened to make way for a new residential development, and several adjoining property owners are getting more than a first-hand look at the demolition.

The old Green's Superette, located at the corner of Mayor Avenue and Howley Avenue Extension, is being turned into wooden splinters and crumbled cinder blocks by a menacing-looking excavator.

The new owner of the property, Tony Lockyer of Deer Park Contracting, plans to construct a five-unit residential complex on the site.

Area residents are happy to see the old structure torn down, because it had become a hangout for teen-agers over the years, and there were fears there would be a fire in the abandoned building.

But the demolition hasn't gone exactly as planned.

A section of the warehouse roof and a portion of a cinder block wall fell onto three adjoining properties Monday, practically destroying one shed, damaging the roof of another and knocking two fences askew.

The damage seemed to be most severe in Joan McCue's backyard. The roof and two walls in her small wooden shed were wrecked, and a nearby tree was buckled under the weight of the warehouse roof.

A cinder block could be seen perched high in another tree.

McCue shudders to think what might have happened if she was in or near the shed. Two small children live next door, she added.

"It's very disturbing," McCue said. "I didn't sleep last night thinking about it."

McCue noticed the damage when she got home from work Monday evening. She said the shed was full of her belongings, including Christmas decorations, lawn-care items, golf clubs, patio furniture and more.

She spoke to a company official and he was very apologetic, she said.

McCue wants, and expects, full restitution for her losses.

She also wonders why she wasn't given any notice that the demolition was going to take place.

The close proximity of the properties makes demolition a tricky operation, said another neighbour, who asked not to be identified.

"I expected it," the man said.

He surveyed the damage Tuesday morning, pointing to a cinder block lodged in the roof of his shed. His fence was also damaged, along with a compost bin and a bicycle.

"I'm not angry, but someone will have to fix it to my satisfaction. There's no sense getting angry," he added.

He said he made contact with the company and was waiting for someone to visit.

Sharon Trenholm lives next to the demolition site on Howley Avenue Extension. Her property was not damaged, and she was happy to see the old building coming down.

She praised the company for meeting with her and explaining its plans.

"It's been a magnet for teens," she said, adding she's had to call the police on several occasions.

Several years ago, she said someone tried to light a fire at the building's entrance. Firefighters were quick to respond, she said. There have also been several break-ins at the building, and neighbours have complained about a growing litter problem.

"It's time for it to go," she said.

The family-owned business has been closed for nearly a decade, but was a fixture in the neighbourhood for several generations.

Lockyer was not available for comment Tuesday.

I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the proposed development for the site, if there has been a detailed descritption or any pictures released?

[PoscStudent]

Architype what kind of program did you use to make your picture of the possible future skyline?

[Architype]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

Architype what kind of program did you use to make your picture of the possible future skyline?

I used paintshop Pro, but many paint programs can have similar results. The drawing method is simple and similar to that used in the SSP diagrams. I didn't use that much detail (resolution) in doing this, more detail might have produced a better result. If you're interested, there is an SSP link for drawing which mentions some programs, and may help Here.

[PoscStudent]

Thanks for the information I might try it.

Update:
Well I attempted and failed miserably.

[PoscStudent]

VOCM article: http://vocm.com/newsarticle.asp?mn=2&id=4653&latest=1

The chair of the St. John's Board of Trade Derek Sullivan discussed prosperity at the St. John's Rotary Club luncheon Thursday. Sullivan outlined a number of issues that he feels will help build prosperity in the capital city and the province as a whole.

He says the federal government has to invest in Marine Atlantic to help build an access to mainland markets. Sullivan says the Board of Trade continues to call for an elimination of the province's payroll tax. He cautioned against what he calls artificial prosperity created by increases to the minimum wage, and encourages government to consult with the business community on the matter.

Sullivan also emphasized the Board of Trade's view on development in the city's downtown, indicating heritage and progress can co-exist. He referenced the benefits outlined in a recent report on high density development in England, which indicates high density buildings encourage walking and reduces urban sprawl and traffic conjestion.

It's to bad these arn't the people making the decisions on development, they obviously are thinking alot more logically then city council.

[Architype]

^ Poscstudent, that is all very true, the DDC is in favour of development, while the city council has to have a broader agenda.

In a strange way, the article I'm posting below is somehow relevant to today's issues as you can see where it all started.
_______________________________________

Here is a bit of history I discovered, from 1973.

In today's context I thought this was relevant, humorous, and ironic.

To see the article in context, click "source" below.



Source-Montreal Gazette

[PoscStudent]

I actually find this story sad. Atlantic Place was being thought of as this masterpiece and now nearly 40 years later the building sits as the uncompleted eyesore of Water Street. St. John's was Eastern Canada's most rapidly expanding city and the construction industry was booming but the skyline of downtown hasn't really changed a whole lot. Then there was the Come By Chance oil refinery, while in the end it worked out it went through a lot of struggles before production could begin and yet again 40 years later the plans for a second oil refinery in Placentia Bay are still being discussed. Then there was Churchill Falls, probably the best project ever completed in the province with regards to it being a definite source of revenue forever, yet because of one screwed up contract we may soon be paying more to run the plant then we will be getting back in return. Almost just as sad as all of this is it was only a few years later that Shannie Duff got elected to council because she didn't agree with the construction of Atlantic Place and she is still sitting there today.