YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[nname]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Hot Rod, I (and I'm sure all SSP Vancouver) love your support of Vancouver. I just don't get why you feel Vancouver has it all over Seattle, which has a much larger GDP$ than Vancouver (and,by extension, more business pax). Plus, Seattle is a larger metro by one million plus. I would have thought SEA would be first choice, not YVR.

Well, Turkish and Thai are both Star Alliance member, so they could benefit from AC's network in North America. Plus in YVR don't have EK... The case for TK is obvious, but do you know that EK flies SEVEN daily BKK-DXB, with mostly A380?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, Turkish and Thai are both Star Alliance member, so they could benefit from AC's network in North America. Plus in YVR don't have EK... The case for TK is obvious, but do you know that EK flies SEVEN daily BKK-DXB, with mostly A380?

..... regarding EK serving Seattle, I have a faint glimmer of hope that TK would recognize that as heavy competition, and wait for YVR landing rights ....
if Ottawa will give it to them, which is a long shot, given their protection of YYZ.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Did anyone really expect anything else? That good ol' Eastern Canada / YYZ / AC protectionism is still there.

Did you read the whole article? At the end it quoted the bilateral lawyer as stating that Air Canada was likely involved in teh process:

“I can’t imagine (Turkish) would start this process without having gotten Air Canada’s support,” said Clark, adding he could see the YVR flight coming as early as 2017. “Where one foreign airline may have a lot of difficulties coming in on their own, it appears to be very easy to do if you get the support of a Canadian carrier.

Personally I think we will see a Turkish link to YVR announced in the next 12 months. There's just too much chatter for nothing to be happening.

Though AC (and most flag carriers) has it's protectionist tendencies, I think the fact that Turkish is Star Alliance will do a lot to make this route happen. Additionally YVR is Air Canada's second largest hub, though they clearly favour YYZ (as they should) I don't think they are trying to stifle growth at YVR.

Originally Posted by casper

The Vancouver Sun. I get more disappointed in their reporting day by day.

In the last paragraph their expert claims soon we should be seeing a Vancouver - Auckland flight established.

Only problem is we have had that route for a few years now.

I think if you look at the context in which he was speaking it was an Air Canada Auckland and Melbourne link. They we're quoting an industry speaker anyway, so if anything it was he that was misinformed.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

Good to see the Turkish community stepping up and Turkish Airline's interest in going out with Vancouver. It's funny that Seattle is the backup, lol.

As to the earlier question regarding Thai, I believe they are interested in both cities; likely starting with Vancouver since it is closest and easiest to get going. If demand is as projected, they'd then add Seattle. That's just a guess based on what I read and what folks posted concerning the competitive advantages Vancouver has; many of the very obvious - over Seattle.

I think Seattle's new Terminal plan is to basically redu the South Satellite. Seattle doesn't have the land/space to really construct a true International Terminal (ala YVR or SFO) that could ever hope to really compete. This IMO is really just Delta wanting to expand/rehab the South Terminal and SEA's desire to expand/modernize the Customs/Immigration; however, the fact that Delta is even interested in playing ball on this DOES show a commitment from DL to making SEA a gateway (which honestly I'm actually surprised given the loads). SEA is definitely trying to be a player, though - the little engine that 'could'.

I think Delta is hoping that Seattle will in the future become a major player and saw a hole to fill. Alaska, which officially is not part of ANY alliance, has almost half of all flights out of SeaTac.

Here's an interesting article on the expansion from last year, and on the debates over who will pay for it: http://old.seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2025558052_seatacgrowthxml.html

Some comments from the article:

In an interview before Tuesday’s meeting, Mike Medeiros, Delta vice president in charge of Seattle operations, described the planned facility as “critically, critically important for Sea-Tac to keep a competitive edge” against rival West Coast airline gateways such as Vancouver, B.C., and San Francisco.

Another opinion from a blogger: http://www.travelcodex.com/2015/01/plans-expanding-seatac-leave-scratching-head/

How about an extension of the existing terminal that connects it to the North and South Satellites? Even over long distances, physical connections between buildings make it easier to transfer between flights or rush when you’re running late. The South Satellite would be an especially good candidate for connecting to Concourse A, much as Concourses B and C currently branch off the main building.

I'm with the blogger on this one. A physical connection is not only typically faster, but psychologically closer. The instant you have to wait for a train, the distance seems much further than it would be to walk.


YVR doesn't have as many of these money issues and it has a cohesive plan that's been in the works for decades, not just being thought up after Delta puts some routes through Seattle. YVR has also had a much higher AIF for much longer ( SeaTac's AIF is $4.50 ) and that has allowed it to have the money to make a cohesive plan to expand the airport on its own terms.

It is interesting to see SeaTac's development over time. I will say that SeaTac not pushing to have the LRT routed closer to the terminal hurts it considerably. I was just there and the route to the LRT is annoying, through a parking garage and really feels like an afterthought.

We all like to lament YVR losing pax to BLI to SEA, but I think in some ways SEA has more struggles. They have to compete more directly with SFO and with the 787 coming online, even places like PDX represent competition.

It makes sense that Delta wants to make Seattle a hub. United and American don't have a strong presence there and Seattle's in a good position for Asia ( read: China ). In addition, Seattle has good potential for business pax, with a much larger corporate presence. But until they get building and figure out some of the logistics issues, they will continue to lose pax to SFO and yes, even YVR.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

......................

Personally I think we will see a Turkish link to YVR announced in the next 12 months. There's just too much chatter for nothing to be happening.

Though AC (and most flag carriers) has it's protectionist tendencies, I think the fact that Turkish is Star Alliance will do a lot to make this route happen. Additionally YVR is Air Canada's second largest hub, though they clearly favour YYZ (as they should) I don't think they are trying to stifle growth at YVR.

..... Hope you're right, LC !! (You often are)

[twoNeurons]

Here's a few fun comparison facts:

Downtown to YVR distance ( by Canada Line ): ~15 km
Downtown to SEA distance ( by Link LRT ): ~15 miles

Average speed: 35 km/h vs. 38 km/h ( Seattle LRT slightly faster, assuming no delays in the transit tunnel )

Number of stops: 11 ( both )

Time to destination

to YVR: 24 minutes
to SEA: 34 minutes

Connection to terminal:
YVR: <1 minute
SEA: 4 minutes

In many ways, the two systems are similar ( same number of stops, same overall average speed ).

YVR is closer than SeaTac so that's an advantage.
SeaTac has better road connections ( obviously ) not giving LRT a clear advantage over taxis/cars outside of rush hour.

YVR's station is located much closer to the terminal, though in comparison with many US airports, SEA has good a location.

Seattle's Link LRT has a MUCH better view and experience and a better intro to the city ( IMHO ).

Anyway, just to those who were curious, I've done the arithmetic.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Seattle's Link LRT has a MUCH better view and experience and a better intro to the city ( IMHO ).

I always thought it was a big mistake to bury the Canada Line south of 25th Avenue for precisely this reason.

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I always thought it was a big mistake to bury the Canada Line south of 25th Avenue for precisely this reason.

Are you serious? Its a transit line, not an amusement ride. The experience of riders has some importance but not in the manner you are speaking. There are other more important factors involved. I love the views on Skytrain, but would bury most of it in an instant if money allowed. Its not the worst thing to thread through the city, but the guide way is still a negative imposition on most of the places it runs over.

[Hot Rod]

you failed to read the article. Bigger doesn't always Better!

I also think you fail to realize that SEA's economy is mostly IT/knowledge based, which isn't/doesn't need to travel (ok, maybe that was a plug for my employer - Microsoft, and our Cloud, but still). Very much can explain SEA's relative lack of business international.

And my opinion of many of you Vancouverites on this forum is you tend to over-estimate or trump up Seattle unnecessarily; seemingly to the level of how you treat Toronto. There's NO reason why an International airline would chose Seattle over Vancouver unless 1) Seattle offers incentives or 2) they COULDN"T get into Vancouver for whatever reason (ala Eremites). See SEA's Int'l Flags vs. YVR's and tell me I'm wrong here.

Seems to be a bit of a complex in Vancouver, not sure why since the world loves your city regardless if you're a 4m metro area by the Canadian Census Bureau or US Standards. ....

I don't feel Vancouver has it all over Seattle (even though like many Seattleites I PREFER VANCOUVER as a city). But I do think that YVR has it all over SEA and I don't think I'm wrong with my opinion either.

ok, back to the thread - as I mentioned and the article did, I suspect Thai will service both cities eventually but I personally think they will go to YVR first given they're not looking for any of the attributes you mentioned that makes Seattle shine better than Vancouver as a market (otherwise, they'd go BACK into LAX). ...

[LeftCoaster]

Can't remember if I've shared this here or not but I put together a chart of Seattle's intl service in the summer, and it's significantly less than YVR.

Of course SEA crushes YVR on the US connections but YVR is significantly better connected intercontinentally.



Compared to YVR as I posted last week:

[trofirhen]

Wow, we do beat out SEA-TAC for overseas.
The only ones they have that we don't are Emirates to Dubai, and Volaris to Guadalajara.
Also, Icelandic is much more present in Seattle, but that's really because they filled the void SAS left (and there is a big Scandinavian market in Seattle)

[mezzanine]

no tourist charters for SEA? I don't see condor, edelweiss or an intl vacation charter/LCC like air transit on that list.

[LeftCoaster]

Condor is on the list. As far as I know that's the only one that flies to SEA.

[casper]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

no tourist charters for SEA? I don't see condor, edelweiss or an intl vacation charter/LCC like air transit on that list.

Charter airlines just are not a big thing in the US.

[zahav]

YVR introducing more resturants! They chose some good diverse ones too (Tacoshack, Pajos Fish & Chips, a Banh Mi sandwhich shop, Lift Bar + Grill, and others). I am curious which existing restaurants these are taking over from, I am going to message YVR and find out I have to say the international food court before security is kinda lame, they could definitely use more choices (that Brooks Brothers store should really be more food!).

I have to say, I love how proactive YVR is, when it comes to terminal redevelopment and expansion, innovations (ie the new Dog Relief room, new connection corridors, baggage systems, etc.), and now better food choice. They don't sit back and just enjoy the high airport rankings they keep receiving, rather they try to stay ahead of the curve. Obviously it's no Singapre or Incheon, but by most standards the airport is really well run!

http://www.yvr.ca/en/blog/new-eats-take-off-at-yvr

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by casper

Charter airlines just are not a big thing in the US.

Charters have somewhat of prescence in south florida
We have Eastern Airlines in MIA that offers service to Cuba
Condor flies out of FLL

But in response to your assumption (which is correct), I believe South Florida is more of a charter destination that any other US city..similar to Vegas. A lot of europeans here in the winter.

[Klazu]

Visited the designer outlet this evening on my way to drop off my wife at YVR. Still quite a lot people shopping at 7pm on a regular Wednesday evening, but I did feel like the only caucasian there.

I was surprised that not a single new store had opened since my last visit in last September. The back area is still almost empty with just few stores. People have been saying that the outlet is doing great, but strange that they have not been able to lure in any new stores since it opened. Still the only queue is outside of that Coach store. Like, what is so special about that place? I just don't get it...

I was hoping to have the A380 fly above, but the flight was delayed tonight. Has a Dreamliner flyover, though. My wife is flying on the A380 to London tonight, which makes me slightly jealous, having not been onboard one yet.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Here's a few fun comparison facts:

Downtown to YVR distance ( by Canada Line ): ~15 km
Downtown to SEA distance ( by Link LRT ): ~15 miles

Average speed: 35 km/h vs. 38 km/h ( Seattle LRT slightly faster, assuming no delays in the transit tunnel )

Number of stops: 11 ( both )

Time to destination

to YVR: 24 minutes
to SEA: 34 minutes

Connection to terminal:
YVR: <1 minute
SEA: 4 minutes

In many ways, the two systems are similar ( same number of stops, same overall average speed ).

YVR is closer than SeaTac so that's an advantage.
SeaTac has better road connections ( obviously ) not giving LRT a clear advantage over taxis/cars outside of rush hour.

YVR's station is located much closer to the terminal, though in comparison with many US airports, SEA has good a location.

Seattle's Link LRT has a MUCH better view and experience and a better intro to the city ( IMHO ).

Anyway, just to those who were curious, I've done the arithmetic.

I heard recently that between 17-20% of the passengers and employees of YVR now travel by the Canada Line (presumably not including the employees who ride it APM-style between the employee parking lot and terminal).

[Black Box]

2019 is going to be a big year for SEA with a new terminal. If the Port can get it together, the results will be highly beneficial for Seattle and the Puget Sound region. Hot Rod, as someone who's lives here as well, the Port of Seattle provides many jobs (although competition from BC and California is slowly eroding business), we build planes and ships (Boeing is slowly eroding), but Seattle has a flourishing, dynamic and enviable economy. The future of space travel is also taking shape here. Seattle is pretty resilient, but there's no doubt in my mind that testing times for us await in the Emerald City.

[Johnny Aussie]

Another route launch happening today.

Almost forgot about this one... kinda just slipped under the carpet.

Today it's Air Transat to Roma!

First flight scheduled to depart in about 15 mins.