Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Richmond's Chinese bus stop ads must now be at least 50% in English

Read more: http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/richmond-chinese-english-bus-stops-shelters-benches-advertisements

Strange that this is coming up now all of a sudden. It only applies to bus stops for now though, because the deal is with Pattison (is he famous outside of Vancouver?) Advertising and not a by-law. Hints at a mention of this issue in a new signage by-law to be introduced later this year though.

Pattison is not necessarily famous but his name is on many billboard tabs here.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A Charter challenge would seem extremely contrived to me. You have a contractual agreement between two parties. I know the city is a public entity but still... Pattison wasn't compelled to do anything AFAIK.

If it were to happen, it would have to be someone wanting to place a foreign language ad. Could it be an issue of freedom of expression?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If it were to happen, it would have to be someone wanting to place a foreign language ad. Could it be an issue of freedom of expression?

Well, if court cases involving Quebec's laws are any indication, "freedom of commercial expression" doesn't really exist. Or at least is not a virtually unlimited freedom like others often are. Corporations and businesses also don't necessarily have wide-ranging freedom of expression rights like individuals do.

Of course there might be the question of whether English is "under threat" in Vancouver, in BC or in Canada, in the same way that French might be viewed in Montreal and Quebec and Canada and North America. The upholding of some of Quebec's language law provisions by the SCC also took this into account.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pattison is not necessarily famous but his name is on many billboard tabs here.

Well, he's only the 4th richest person in Canada.

[isaidso]

A common language is important for a society to function but honestly I don't care if Canada one day becomes majority Mandarin, Spanish, or Klingon for that matter. If that's how Canadians want to communicate, I'll learn what ever language becomes dominant. And before people pile on about how hard it will be for some to learn a new language, it's not like this would happen overnight. It would take a century or more for a country's entire linguistic reality to change to something else.

People would naturally start learning languages that gain importance. Over time it would be seen as no different than learning English or French.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by isaidso

A common language is important for a society to function but honestly I don't care if Canada one day becomes majority Mandarin, Spanish, or Klingon for that matter. If that's how Canadians want to communicate, I'll learn what ever language becomes dominant. And before people pile on about how hard it will be for some to learn a new language, it's not like this would happen overnight. It would take a century or more for a country's entire linguistic reality to change to something else.

People would naturally start learning languages that gain importance. Over time it would be seen as no different than learning English or French.

I guess that's the fundamental difference between the two sides of this issue. I would consider it tragic if Canada lost English (not that I ever expect this to happen), just as I don't think it's a good thing that English is overpowering a lot of languages in other countries. But I tend to be more nationalist/protectionist when it comes to politics in general.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by isaidso

A common language is important for a society to function but honestly I don't care if Canada one day becomes majority Mandarin, Spanish, or Klingon for that matter. If that's how Canadians want to communicate, I'll learn what ever language becomes dominant. And before people pile on about how hard it will be for some to learn a new language, it's not like this would happen overnight. It would take a century or more for a country's entire linguistic reality to change to something else.

People would naturally start learning languages that gain importance. Over time it would be seen as no different than learning English or French.

I would wager that many Canadians do not share this point of view, including myself, and yes I am fluent in both English and French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I guess that's the fundamental difference between the two sides of this issue. I would consider it tragic if Canada lost English (not that I ever expect this to happen), just as I don't think it's a good thing that English is overpowering a lot of languages in other countries. But I tend to be more nationalist/protectionist when it comes to politics in general.

Surprisingly, many Canadians seem quite relaxed and zen about this possibility.

Of course this is just talk. And it comes from the comfy confines where the speaker knows it's not really going to happen.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Surprisingly, many Canadians seem quite relaxed and zen about this possibility.

Of course this is just talk. And it comes from the comfy confines where the speaker knows it's not really going to happen.

Is it "zen" to be relaxed about something that is not going to happen? The alternative might involve anti-anxiety medication!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Is it "zen" to be relaxed about something that is not going to happen? The alternative might involve anti-anxiety medication!

It's not quite the same thing that I am talking about.

It's kind of like being a white person in the U.S. and not seeing the need for affirmative action back in the day because there is "no problem".

It's easy to say you'd be totally cool with Canada becoming a Mandarin-speaking country, when you know full well that will never happen.

It's almost a form of "white man's privilege", or "anglo man's privilege" in the case of a linguistic free market, so to speak.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Surprisingly, many Canadians seem quite relaxed and zen about this possibility.

Of course this is just talk. And it comes from the comfy confines where the speaker knows it's not really going to happen.

Indeed. As per the comfy confines of the Anglo world, I am reminded of people saying this sort of shit: "Why learn French when it would be better to learn Mandarin?" Always spoken by the same people who of course have absolutely no intention of learning Mandarin (or French)...statements of this sort demonstrate to me that people are still sore about having to fork over gazillions of their hard-earned income in the form of taxes to support "wasteful" bilingualism... (cue a reference to the infamous 7-up guy).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Indeed. As per the comfy confines of the Anglo world, I am reminded of people saying this sort of shit: "Why learn French when it would be better to learn Mandarin?" Always spoken by the same people who of course have absolutely no intention of learning Mandarin (or French)...statements of this sort demonstrate to me that people are still sore about having to fork over gazillions of their hard-earned income in the form of taxes to support "wasteful" bilingualism... (cue a reference to the infamous 7-up guy).

You are too kind. The cost of bilingualism is just another excuse, the same as your Mandarin example. The real "problem", consciously or otherwise, is that French exists in Canada. It's pretty straightforward, and it's unfortunate that people aren't called out on it.

[Acajack]

In fairness guys, I don't think isadiso meant that or thinks that. Even if he happens to be paraphrasing one of the favourite tropes of a certain subset of Canadian society.

[vid]

Mandarin isn't the only language spoken in China. Like Scandinavians, many Asian business professionals speak in English to communicate when there is a language barrier. Considering how many things are structured in English (computer programming being one of the biggest) I don't think it makes sense even for the Chinese to try to overtake it as a lingua franca. English is too versatile a language. If anything, we won't be speaking a Chinese language in the future, but rather a new dialect of English that has been heavily influenced by Chinese languages.

[whatnext]

Looks kike Richmond has bigger problems than signs:

With reports that more foreign women travelling to Metro Vancouver to deliver their babies, some local mothers feel like they're being pushed out of hospitals in Richmond by a "birth tourism" boom.
According to Vancouver Coastal Health, one in six babies born in Richmond are born to foreign mothers. These children will gain a lifetime of Canadian benefits, including automatic Canadian citizenship and free education when they turn five years old. Sometimes when hospital beds are full, local mothers are diverted to other hospitals.

There were 552 deliveries in Richmond Hospital between Aug. 12 and Nov. 3, 2016. During this same time period, there were 18 diversions to other maternity hospitals due to overcapacity issues...

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/b-c-moms-turned-away-as-birth-tourism-spikes-at-hospitals-1.3150142

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's easy to say you'd be totally cool with Canada becoming a Mandarin-speaking country, when you know full well that will never happen.

My junk mail says something about the demographics around here. The national chain store flyers are in English. Real estate and casino ads are in English and Chinese and often just Chinese (my particular building and area has more Koreans than Chinese people, but we don't get any Korean junk mail).

I feel bad for the real estate advertisers because based on the received wisdom here in the SSP Canada section they are targeting their ads incorrectly, since foreign buyers who cannot easily understand written English are an inconsequential part of the real estate market in the Vancouver area.

Joking aside, I don't believe we are seeing the first steps toward Mandarin becoming the primary language in the Vancouver area but I do think there is a big disconnect between the reality in the ground in gateway cities, the reality on the ground in a lot of poorer countries that are sources of immigrants, and what a lot of Canadians think can work out in terms of liberal policies around immigration and foreign trade. The liberal policies only work out well when they address other countries with a similar level of development. Until recently this was true in Canada because it was so hard to get here from anywhere but the US, and the US itself absorbed a huge number of immigrants (it did not act as a springboard for people trying to get into Canada).

Case in point, the "anchor baby" thing has already been heavily politicized in the states to the point where people will often accuse you of being racist if you suggest that jus soli or birthright citizenship might not be a great or workable policy in the long run. It dates back to a time when Canada was starved of inhabitants and when we didn't offer much in the way of social services or welfare to citizens. I am not sure that there is a great alternative (I think it is bad to have people grow up somewhere but not allow them to go to school or work), but this may become a serious issue in Canada at some point. Apparently it is already having an impact in Richmond.

In Switzerland many people voted against a guaranteed minimum income because they felt that it was incompatible with the country's relatively porous borders (within the EU and for refugees moving around illegally). I don't know enough to comment on how real that concern is, but I do think there is tension between social services and open borders (or services for citizens and easily-granted citizenship).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Joking aside, I don't believe we are seeing the first steps toward Mandarin becoming the primary language in the Vancouver area but I do think there is a big disconnect between the reality in the ground in gateway cities, the reality on the ground in a lot of poorer countries that are sources of immigrants, and what a lot of Canadians think can work out in terms of liberal policies around immigration and foreign trade. The liberal policies only work out well when they address other countries with a similar level of development. Until recently this was true in Canada because it was so hard to get here from anywhere but the US, and the US itself absorbed a huge number of immigrants (it did not act as a springboard for people trying to get into Canada).

Canada's contemporary experience with immigration and, by extension, diversity has been tremendously positive and successful.

Part of this is due to sound, smart policies. And part of it is just plain dumb luck.

I guess we cannot blame people for thinking that the party will never end, but as Canada and (especially!) the world change, it becomes more and more of an illusion that the exact same recipe is always going to produce the same desirable outcome.

[Acajack]

As a follow-up, when I was a kid I inherited a huge collection of National Geographic magazines from an old great uncle of mine who was very curious about the world. He and I used to talk at length about the places he visited, and he played a huge role in my eventual urge to travel and see the world.

Anyway, in those National Geographic magazines from the 60s, 70s and 80s are articles about various places in the world that the writers at the time labelled "diversity paradises". Well, they didn't use that exact term, but that was the general sense you got. People from all over the world living together in a city or even a country. Happily. Mutually enriched by all that ambient diversity.

Since then, a few of these places have been torn apart by bloody strife, and an even greater number have become not-so-harmonious.

It doesn't mean it will happen to us, but it certainly doesn't mean it can't happen to us either.

[esquire]

^ Fair point. Although it should be noted that we don't really have underlying centuries-old ethnic feuds that are being kept in check by some strongman dictator like some Soviet-bloc country circa 1962. I mean, there are petty gripes and what not, but it's not like if the RCMP suddenly left Manitoba that the Africans and the Cree would suddenly be at each other's throats.

As to someone's point regarding birthright citizenship, I wonder if the interim response might take the form of more stringent residency requirements to access certain benefits of the welfare state? Or perhaps more stringent means testing? To some extent this sort of thing already exists... the most obvious example being the residency requirement for medicare, which keeps a lot of snowbirds in Canada for (depending on the province) roughly half the year. I don't know what kind of means tests exist now for provincial welfare programs, but the mythical housewife earning $12,000 a year but living in a $4,000,000 Vancouver home might need to jump through a few more hoops to claim BC social assistance - assuming that there is a problem with establishing eligibility in the first place, I suppose.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Fair point. Although it should be noted that we don't really have underlying centuries-old ethnic feuds that are being kept in check by some strongman dictator like some Soviet-bloc country circa 1962. I mean, there are petty gripes and what not, but it's not like if the RCMP suddenly left Manitoba that the Africans and the Cree would suddenly be at each other's throats.

As to someone's point regarding birthright citizenship, I wonder if the interim response might take the form of more stringent residency requirements to access certain benefits of the welfare state? Or perhaps more stringent means testing? To some extent this sort of thing already exists... the most obvious example being the residency requirement for medicare, which keeps a lot of snowbirds in Canada for (depending on the province) roughly half the year. I don't know what kind of means tests exist now for provincial welfare programs, but the mythical housewife earning $12,000 a year but living in a $4,000,000 Vancouver home might need to jump through a few more hoops to claim BC social assistance - assuming that there is a problem with establishing eligibility in the first place, I suppose.

For quite some time now, the guiding principle in Canada for most of these issues has often been "maximum generosity and openness". Another example is the persistent talk in Ontario about letting non-citizen permanent residents vote in municipal elections.