NEW YORK | 15 Penn Plaza (Hotel Penn) | 1,050 FT / 315 M | 52 FLOORS

[njcco]

Sorry, I know the Hotel Pennsylvania is a McKim, Mead & White building, but even they had some bad ones, and this was a really bad one. I have waited for years for this flea-trap to be demolished, and I fear it will be there for many more years. It is an obsolete and disgusting building - the renovation will simply be putting lipstick on a rotting carcass of a pig.

As to the Pelli discussion above, Pelli does seem to have run out of new ideas. That said, his buildings are awfully handsome. I work near the GS building in Jersey City and it has really grown on me over the years.

[THE BIG APPLE]

It is a REAL BAD one.

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[Don098]

Originally Posted by THE BIG APPLE

^ I think what the people are trying to say is that you said the building looks NOTHING like GS NJ. It does look similar, but to an extent. Yes there are other buildings that look more similar to 15 Penn than GS NJ, but you shouldn't have said word NOTHING. People look into it.

This is getting silly, but at least it drives home my larger point that this is not an original design by any stretch of the imagination so it's not worthy of its prominence on the midtown Manhattan skyline - the most iconic skyline in the entire world. If it was three to four hundred feet smaller as an infill, then by all means, build it. But in my skyscraper utopia, height is only afforded to designs that are worthy of such prominence. They need to be signature, risk-taking pieces of art, not cookie-cutter McMansions of the sky. I think it's safe to assume that all architects dreamed of designing and building something as magnificent as the Empire State building, so for starchitects to abuse that lofty position by pooping out bland designs is unforgivable to me. I'm sure I'd like this design more if it had a little more texture AND it hadn't been done in a zillion other cities by now. Point is: Hong Kong got this skyscraper first...and this would have been yet another indication that we're becoming a country of followers instead of leaders...

[Roadcruiser1]

Originally Posted by Don098

This is getting silly, but at least it drives home my larger point that this is not an original design by any stretch of the imagination so it's not worthy of its prominence on the midtown Manhattan skyline - the most iconic skyline in the entire world. If it was three to four hundred feet smaller as an infill, then by all means, build it. But in my skyscraper utopia, height is only afforded to designs that are worthy of such prominence. They need to be signature, risk-taking pieces of art, not cookie-cutter McMansions of the sky. I think it's safe to assume that all architects dreamed of designing and building something as magnificent as the Empire State building, so for starchitects to abuse that lofty position by pooping out bland designs is unforgivable to me. I'm sure I'd like this design more if it had a little more texture AND it hadn't been done in a zillion other cities by now. Point is: Hong Kong got this skyscraper first...and this would have been yet another indication that we're becoming a country of followers instead of leaders...

Not really. It is common for architects to copy each other. Go to this thread.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=98712

[THE BIG APPLE]

^ I just came from that thread, and posted 3 pairs of buildings.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Exactly. Why I bother, I don't know.

NO. Countless buildings are designed many times before they are built. Not saying this one will be but it's possible.

[NYC4Life]

To sum it all up: This tower is delayed, not "Cancelled." Nearby developments like Manhattan West and Hudson Yards are currently more competitive and already have potential tenants lined up. Good thing the Hotel Penn was not demolished prematurely like we've seen with other proposals, only to see giant pits that sit empty for years because the market demands declined. While the markets themselves and office demand are beginning to show signs of a rebound, the rates are still high enough where certain sites will either get momentarily sidetracked (like this one) or ultimately cancelled.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by RobertWalpole

NY is the financial capital of the world and has an insatiable desire for new construction which is unmatched by any other US city.

Anyway, for those who aren't familiar with NY or with Vornado's plans, here's the article regarding the mere delay for 15 Penn:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/re...en_in_skyline_war_Rg47P5grAVT5Ocs4QFn5IJ

15 Dec. 2011
NY Post

That's the article I posted yesterday, and somewhat regret doing so. But let me say again that this isn't really anything Vornado hasn't already been saying, I guess people just haven't paid attention.

Some points of the article:

-Sources tell us that Vornado Realty Trust is putting off constructing 15 Penn Plaza until market rents reach a point where it’s worthwhile to redevelop the site

-Vornado is mulling plowing millions of dollars into renovating its Hotel Pennsylvania

-“It could cost $30 million just to renovate the rooms,” said one executive who was not authorized to speak on the record. “It’s 1,000 rooms and everything adds up.”

They're thinking about it, but they've been thinking about it for the past few years. The article was not intended to give people the idea that the tower was canceled.




Here's another piece that was posted last year that also gives an idea...

http://www.hotelnewsnow.com/Articles.asp...best%20use%E2%80%99%20of%20real%20estate
The ‘highest and best use’ of real estate

13 September 2010
By Daniel H. Lesser

The recent vote by the New York City Council approving construction of 15 Penn Plaza, a 1.3-million-square-foot office building on the site of the Hotel Pennsylvania in Manhattan, is most likely the final chapter of this storied hotel’s economic life......The notion of the Hotel Pennsylvania's demolition was first introduced in the late 1990s when Vornado Realty Trust acquired the property.

Vornado then announced in 2007 the hotel would be demolished to make way for a new office building with Merrill Lynch & Company...the recent financial crisis and the concerns regarding Merrill Lynch’s solvency ultimately led to collapse of the proposal to erect the then planned 2.5-million square-foot tower. While in 2007 the highest and best use of the Hotel Pennsylvania site appeared to be razing the structure and constructing a brand new office tower, just one year later the global financial crisis rendered the economic feasibility of that proposed development untenable, and halted the project.

During 2008, the interim highest and best use of the property evolved to the continued use of the site as a functionally and physically obsolete hotel until such time when a proposed redevelopment of the site again became financially viable. An analysis of highest and best use involves two considerations:

1. The most likely and profitable use of the site "as if vacant" under the requirements set forth above.

2. If a property is "already improved," “highest and best use” is the use that should be made of the property to maximize value for non-income producing properties or, maximize net operating income on a long range basis for investment properties. In cases where capital expenditure is necessary to renovate or improve an income producing property, these costs must provide a sufficient rate of return (to the owner) for the total amount invested in the site and building improvements.

As long as the value of a property "as improved" is greater than the value of the site as "if vacant," the highest and best use is typically the "improved" property. Once the value of the vacant land exceeds the value of the improved property (including demolition costs), highest and best use usually dictates that improvements be demolished.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by Roadcruiser1

There are buildings that look a lot more like 15 Penn Plaza than those two. One would be the Transbay Terminal Tower.

Look at this picture and compare, and you can see why I am saying those two above look nothing like 15 Penn. This is also by Pelli.

Yes. All four buildings were designed by Pelli, thus, they all look alike.

[Zapatan]

Ok let me get this straight, excuse my ignorance on the subject.

If the Hotel is definitely being rennovated, and the tower was supposed to replace the hotel, how on earth is the building not cancelled?

If the hotel is renovated, it will stay in use for decades at least, ie. we will never see what replaces it in our lifetimes most likely.

[RobertWalpole]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Ok let me get this straight, excuse my ignorance on the subject.

If the Hotel is definitely being rennovated, and the tower was supposed to replace the hotel, how on earth is the building not cancelled?

If the hotel is renovated, it will stay in use for decades at least, ie. we will never see what replaces it in our lifetimes most likely.

Your ignorance is excused. Just take the word of the big boys that the building is not cancelled. It's on hold, which is the case with many pojects around the world for the past 3 years.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by RobertWalpole

Your ignorance is excused. Just take the word of the big boys that the building is not cancelled. It's on hold, which is the case with many pojects around the world for the past 3 years.

If the hotel is going to be renovated the building will be canceled. It doesn't make sense otherwise

[RobertWalpole]

Sorry, friend, but your New York envy and schadenfreud is obstructing your thought process. A $20m renovation is nothing that will impede construction of this tower as soon as a tenant is found. The financial capital of the world will add yet another 350m+ gem to its "skyline capital of the world" crown.

[Zapatan]

If the hotel is renovated they will not tear it down = no building


and if I didn't like NY I wouldn't post in NY threads and get upset when buildings are canceled, silly logic.

[RobertWalpole]

Your insanity does not warrant a response. Moreover, your feined enthusiasm for NY is absurd. I could not care less if someone dislikes NY. However, just state it outright that you have a NY complex, instead of proclaiming to love NY and bask in schadenfreude, when, in your view, a project fails.

[Zapatan]

That's because NY, and most of the USA these days seem to be cancelling every good project that comes along. It's ridiculous.

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by THE BIG APPLE

It is a REAL BAD one.

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I think the outside of the building is gorgeous. Yeah it's run of the mill for NYC. Plenty buildings like it, but it's not ugly...on the outside. I'm sure the inside is pretty lousy though after numerous years of modernization.

Just because I think the building is quite nice, doesn't mean it shouldn't be replaced. You pick your battles when it comes to new development and this hotel is a building I think the city can afford to lose. I think the new tower was a better use of the site because of it's better location and benefits it will bring to the neighborhood. I'm upset, but jeez people are treating this like a funeral.

It's on hold, not canceled.
At least you don't have an empty lot. You have an excellent placeholder building in the meantime (at least viewed from the street) that is generating cash flow.

[RobertWalpole]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

That's because NY, and most of the USA these days seem to be cancelling every good project that comes along. It's ridiculous.

Projects have been put on hold all over the world. I'm no patriot and don't think that the US is the best copuntry. It is, however, the most potent economy in the world and will remain as such. China, within 20 years -- if not sooner -- will witness the greatest civil uprisings that the world has ever seen, which, in turn, will destroy its black market economy.

[JayPro]

As a suburban NYC resident (as I mentioned before), I do believe that this priapic obsession with NYC's future prospects supertall-wise is getting quite out of hand. It's been said before that this project will resume once a tenant has been secured.
It's that simple; and I don't understand for the life of me why we just can't move on from there. I'd love to see this built, too; but that desire isn't fueled by any kind of wish that other worldwide projects go down the crapper because of this insane roller-coaster of a worldwide economy.
Now *that's* entirely a matter of monstrously greedy people who try to steer the course of world events reaping what they sow.
To RWalpoles point, it also seems to be the fulfillment of an ancient curse often attributed to the Chinese: "May you live in interesting times."
This we are doing in many unnerving respects, often at the sacrifice of a skyscraper or two. But as RW intimated, let's just see what happens down the road.
I still think this project has life in spite of everything.

[Roadcruiser1]

As a Chinese American I am going to say that I would support any overthrowing of the Chinese Government since it doesn't give people much freedom, and since it is corrupt. Also many Chinese people doesn't really support communism as I have had talked to many. It is just forced into our throats, but sooner or later it is going to become democratic either by force or by transition like in Myanmar.