NEW YORK | 15 Penn Plaza (Hotel Penn) | 1,050 FT / 315 M | 52 FLOORS

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000

As has been said, this is not cancelled. The Hudson Yards can offer significantly lower rents than their competitors, the WTC has cranes on site, and Brookfields building their deck in January. This will be built but again probably not for several years. The area around Penn Station, the busiest train station in the country, is incredibly underdeveloped, outside of 1 Penn. It's frankly shocking it's taken this long for a building of this size be planned for the area. Over the next decade or so as Mohynihan Station rumbles along this area will see a considerable amount of development.

Zap: just because the hotel is being redone doesn't mean the tower wont be built. Show us where in the article it says the tower is cancelled. I openly admit this will not be built for several years, or we won't see any significant move towards construction for the better part of a decade, but this isn't cancelled...

If they spend millions of dollars renovating the hotel, the hotel will stand for many, many, many years, not just "several years". It's funny too how a couple of NYers here are insistent that every proposal in NY will be built like there's never been anything proposed in NY that wasn't built. There's been many proposals in NY that were never built, just like any other city.

[yankeesfan1000]

Reducing my post to a perceived difference in "several years" and "many, many years" is splitting hairs and you're not really making a new point. I admit this is now years off.

Say what you will about NY posters on this forum, but at the end of the day the average office building in Manhattan is well north of 50 years old. This has a better location in regard to mass transit than Manhattan West, and probably the Yards as well. But doesn't have the financial advantages of its competitors which allow them to offer lower rents, among other things.

Only time will tell whether or not this gets built, but thanks for the insightful post.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000

Zap: just because the hotel is being redone doesn't mean the tower wont be built. Show us where in the article it says the tower is cancelled. I openly admit this will not be built for several years, or we won't see any significant move towards construction for the better part of a decade, but this isn't cancelled...

I thought the tower was completely replacing the hotel though? Ok maybe I misunderstood that.

Well the best we can hope for is that the redesign is taller and better than this one... if it is not in fact cancelled.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000

Reducing my post to a perceived difference in "several years" and "many, many years" is splitting hairs and you're not really making a new point. I admit this is now years off.

Say what you will about NY posters on this forum, but at the end of the day the average office building in Manhattan is well north of 50 years old. This has a better location in regard to mass transit than Manhattan West, and probably the Yards as well. But doesn't have the financial advantages of its competitors which allow them to offer lower rents, among other things.

Only time will tell whether or not this gets built, but thanks for the insightful post.

No, thank you for your insightful posts.

I thought the tower was completely replacing the hotel though? Ok maybe I misunderstood that.

It is. They would tear down the hotel to build the tower. If the hotel is renovated to the tune of probably 10s of millions of dollars, it will probably remain standing for at least 15 more years.

[NYguy]

What is all the fighting for?

Originally Posted by J. Will

If they spend millions of dollars renovating the hotel, the hotel will stand for many, many, many years, not just "several years". It's funny too how a couple of NYers here are insistent that every proposal in NY will be built like there's never been anything proposed in NY that wasn't built.

For about the 15th time, the renovation was always on the table.

There are specific reasons why "certain" people believe this tower will eventually be built, most likely because there are people who follow development in New York. This is not some random proposal, this is an area where the City itself is pushing for development. Anyone who thinks Vornado went through all of the trouble to assemble the massive development rights and rezoning to let the site stay as is, obviously won't understand what's going on here. Especially considering where the site is located, at the most publicly accessible transit site in the City.

This tower was never going to be built on spec, and Vornado needs to sign a tenant (or tenants) under improved market conditions to get things under way. They are NOT going to close the hotel without that happening, and the hotel is a moneymaker for them. The hotel is in BAD shape, and as long as its going to stay open, the least they can do is spend the money to shape it up. Now when the time comes that a tenant or tenants are on hand for the office tower, the hotel will be closed and the tower built as planned.

It's not going to be built tomorrow, obviously, and possibly not in the coming cycle. Brookfield has held onto its development site on 9th Ave (Manhattan West) for years without moving on it, and has also said in recent years they would wait for improved market conditions to justify building on that site, yet things will be moving forward there next month.

I think you people get a little too worked up over these things.

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Well the best we can hope for is that the redesign is taller and better than this one... if it is not in fact cancelled.

There will be no redesign.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by J. Will

It is. They would tear down the hotel to build the tower. If the hotel is renovated to the tune of probably 10s of millions of dollars, it will probably remain standing for at least 15 more years.

And it looks like they're gonna redo the hotel... so the building is cancelled more or less.

Originally Posted by NYguy

What is all the fighting for?



For about the 15th time, the renovation was always on the table.

There are specific reasons why "certain" people believe this tower will eventually be built, most likely because there are people who follow development in New York. This is not some random proposal, this is an area where the City itself is pushing for development. Anyone who thinks Vornado went through all of the trouble to assemble the massive development rights and rezoning to let the site stay as is, obviously won't understand what's going on here. Especially considering where the site is located, at the most publicly accessible transit site in the City.

This tower was never going to be built on spec, and Vornado needs to sign a tenant (or tenants) under improved market conditions to get things under way. They are NOT going to close the hotel without that happening, and the hotel is a moneymaker for them. The hotel is in BAD shape, and as long as its going to stay open, the least they can do is spend the money to shape it up. Now when the time comes that a tenant or tenants are on hand for the office tower, the hotel will be closed and the tower built as planned.

It's not going to be built tomorrow, obviously, and possibly not in the coming cycle. Brookfield has held onto its development site on 9th Ave (Manhattan West) for years without moving on it, and has also said in recent years they would wait for improved market conditions to justify building on that site, yet things will be moving forward there next month.

I think you people get a little too worked up over these things.




There will be no redesign.

So the hotel is basically a temporary money maker until the tower gets built, which may not be this decade.

No redesign? Do you have a source on that? That's kind of depressing to think we will wait all this time for this building, not that it's bad, but it's not really great either. If it were 15 or 1600 feet tall and a bit better looking I could wait ten years for it.

[yankeesfan1000]

A source on no redesign? You have it backwards you'd need a source on a redesign. Read through this thread, getting this building approved was a huge pain because of its proximity to the ESB. No way Vornado want to through that process again.

There will not be a redesign. The hotel is not in good shape. These are not lavish renovations, more simply getting the building up to par with other hotels in the area and similar price points. I'm glad to hear my posts are appreciated as well.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000

A source on no redesign? You have it backwards you'd need a source on a redesign

Exactly. Why I bother, I don't know.

[Rizzo]

Too bad plans are on hold for this one. I like the design. But at least you have a good placeholder in the meantime while market conditions can justify moving forward.

[meh_cd]

No huge loss. Short term, long term, whatever.

The towers going up nearby are better anyway.

[Don098]

Doesn't this building already exist in Jersey City? Doesn't anyone else see that as extraordinarily redundant?

[Roadcruiser1]

Originally Posted by Don098

Doesn't this building already exist in Jersey City? Doesn't anyone else see that as extraordinarily redundant?

There isn't a building in New Jersey that looks like this.

[mistermetAJ]

Originally Posted by Roadcruiser1

There isn't a building in New Jersey that looks like this.

Eh, the Goldman Sachs tower in Jersey City is essentially the same building, just smushed down. It's the same Pelli design he does for all his towers (see Hong Kong, San Francisco proposal, Jersey City). He really has little diversity in design for his office towers.

The Hotel Pennsylvania should be landmarked. i wish Vornado would restore the lobby to its original grace and use all the air rights they bought and transfer it to another site they own in the area.

We need to hold onto all the McKim Meade and White buildings we can.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by Roadcruiser1

There isn't a building in New Jersey that looks like this.

http://restepolsri.blogspot.com/2011/04/goldman-sachs-tower.html

[Roadcruiser1]

Originally Posted by Patrick

http://restepolsri.blogspot.com/2011/04/goldman-sachs-tower.html

That actually looks more the International Finance Center in Hong Kong because it is designed by a similar architect. 15 Penn Plaza looks nothing like them.

[LeftCoaster]

Whoops, sorry accidentally butchered your post, hit edit instead of quite. Feel free to add back your picture.

Originally Posted by Patrick

That actually looks more the International Finance Center in Hong Kong because it is designed by a similar architect. 15 Penn Plaza looks nothing like them.

15 Penn also has the same architect...

I definitely see the similarities, especially with regards to the shape and massing.

[Don098]

Roadcruiser, If you can't see the similarities, you're as blind as a bat or just in denial. Hell, a 3 YEAR OLD would be able to make the comparison on Sesame Street's "Which one of these things is not like the other?" segment...am I crazy or something?? Based on sheer geometrics, to say that "15 Penn looks nothing like them" is borderline factually incorrect...

[Roadcruiser1]

Originally Posted by Don098

Roadcruiser, If you can't see the similarities, you're as blind as a bat or just in denial. Hell, a 3 YEAR OLD would be able to make the comparison on Sesame Street's "Which one of these things is not like the other?" segment...am I crazy or something?? Based on sheer geometrics, to say that "15 Penn looks nothing like them" is borderline factually incorrect...

There are buildings that look a lot more like 15 Penn Plaza than those two. One would be the Transbay Terminal Tower.

Look at this picture and compare, and you can see why I am saying those two above look nothing like 15 Penn. This is also by Pelli.

[THE BIG APPLE]

^ I think what the people are trying to say is that you said the building looks NOTHING like GS NJ. It does look similar, but to an extent. Yes there are other buildings that look more similar to 15 Penn than GS NJ, but you shouldn't have said word NOTHING. People look into it.

[RobertWalpole]

NY is the financial capital of the world and has an insatiable desire for new construction which is unmatched by any other US city.

Anyway, for those who aren't familiar with NY or with Vornado's plans, here's the article regarding the mere delay for 15 Penn:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/re...en_in_skyline_war_Rg47P5grAVT5Ocs4QFn5IJ

15 Dec. 2011
NY Post

Lois Weiss

BETWEEN THE BRICKS

The Empire State Building just might keep the 34th Street skyline to itself for a few more years.

Sources tell us that Vornado Realty Trust is putting off constructing its taller challenger to the west at 15 Penn Plaza until market rents reach a point where it’s worthwhile to redevelop the site with an office building.In the meantime, Vornado is mulling plowing millions of dollars into renovating its Hotel Pennsylvania, a dowdy cash cow that now sits on the future development site at Seventh Avenue between West 32nd and 33rd streets, across from Penn Station and Madison Square Garden.

“It could cost $30 million just to renovate the rooms,” said one executive who was not authorized to speak on the record. “It’s 1,000 rooms and everything adds up.”

Vornado would also commit millions of dollars more to update the lobby and common areas.

In December 2007, Vornado was days away from signing a lease that would enable it to develop a new tower and trading floors for Merrill Lynch when the Wall Street firm switched CEOs and gears amid its deepening financial crisis.

Since then, financial firms that would be the natural anchor tenants have found themselves cutting headcount and putting off major moves until the global economy improves.

Vornado is also facing increased competition for anchor tenants as Brookfield readies its $5 billion, four-tower 5.4 million-square-foot Manhattan West site on Ninth Avenue and Related Cos. gets traction on the West Side with Coach becoming the first tenant/owner for the first Hudson Yards tower.

Downtown also continues to be redeveloped with four World Trade Center towers and availabilities in Brookfield’s World Financial Center, along with Edward J. Minskoff’s redevelopment of 101 Ave. of the Americas, as Post colleague Steve Cuozzo reported yesterday, and his spec building at 10 Astor Place. There is also ready-to-go space in 11 Times Square



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/re...war_Rg47P5grAVT5Ocs4QFn5IJ#ixzz1gesgzmeN