Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Latino immigrants read the New York Times?

Since they total 20% of the U.S. population, it seems safe bet.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I know American culture enough to know the New York Times now uses accents on foreign place names (but still not those of French Canada) not because of some Latino, or Eastern European, or African readership.

And it goes much beyond place names by the way. Or perhaps you're also going to find an excuse for the New York Times not writing French Canadian people's names with their accents?

Canadian Media is hit or miss. I personally think it's ridiculous to include accents. They are Englisih papers write in English. Should they right Pytin?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I know American culture enough to know the New York Times now uses accents on foreign place names (but still not those of French Canada) not because of some Latino, or Eastern European, or African readership.

And it goes much beyond place names by the way. Or perhaps you're also going to find an excuse for the New York Times not writing French Canadian people's names with their accents?

Celine Dion's own website doesn't use an accent in her name. "Celine Dion was born on March 30, 1968, in Charlemagne, Québec, a little town 50 kilometers from Montréal. She was the 14th child of Thérèse Tanguay and Adhémar Dion."

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

To which I respond:



What's certain is French nationalists are not in favor of boosting the population by allowing lots of immigrants to come in, as the UK, Australia, Canada are doing. It's a noticeable difference.

If you insist on putting words in other people's mouths, then doubling down when you are called out on it, you will face consequences. Fair warning.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Celine Dion's own website doesn't use an accent in her name. "Celine Dion was born on March 30, 1968, in Charlemagne, Québec, a little town 50 kilometers from Montréal. She was the 14th child of Thérèse Tanguay and Adhémar Dion."

I don't know what the rules are for inclusion of accents in English (if there are any), but this is a case where I would include the accent because it guides the pronunciation of her name - you can't get to Say-leen (or Say-lin, someone will probably insist) without the accent.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Canadian Media is hit or miss. I personally think it's ridiculous to include accents. They are Englisih papers write in English. Should they right Pytin?

I don't think including the accent is always ridiculous. "Celine" is an example. In Spanish, the accents guide the correct pronunciation (how I hate hearing Colombia's capital called "Bo-GO-ta"). For me, if there's a reason to include the accent, I do it.

EDIT: Oops, I meant "is NOT always ridiculous".

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't think including the accent is always ridiculous. "Celine" is an example. In Spanish, the accents guide the correct pronunciation (how I hate hearing Colombia's capital called "Bo-GO-ta"). For me, if there's a reason to include the accent, I do it.

Yes all accents guide pronouciation but only if you know the rules. I had absolutely no idea they show stress in Spanish. French ones I know sure but then I'm already familar with most names anyway.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't know what the rules are for inclusion of accents in English (if there are any), but this is a case where I would include the accent because it guides the pronunciation of her name - you can't get to Say-leen (or Say-lin, someone will probably insist) without the accent.

She appears to use an accent on her name on the covers of her French language recordings, and not on the English language albums.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This was a big debate in Quebec and I had forgotten about it. What is reasonable is the rub but absolutely if you immmigrate to another country you should be even more cognizant of not demanding others adapt to your ways. In English Canada we are defferential to demands based on religion but Quebec rightly in my view mostly rejects this.

This is the main difference between Canadian multiculturalism and Québec's interculturalism. In interculturalism, an immigrant adapt to its new society, in multiculturalism, a country will adapt its society and laws to immigrants so they will have less adapting (if any) to do in their new land.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

With birth rates now in freefall globally (the Global South is experiencing fertility drops much faster than anyone expected, with many countries now getting old before they get rich), this ultimately isn't sustainable, though. When countries with sub-replacement fertility make up 90% of the global population (a likely scenario within a few decades), immigration becomes a zero-sum game, and no country can avoid this "impending fate" without imposing it on another. The Canadian approach, of using high levels of immigration to maintain a favourable dependency ratio, is ultimately an unsustainable ponzi scheme. If you want to have the working age to retirement age ratio to remain 4:1, it means that the number of immigrants you need to import basically quadruples every generation. (Because every new 30 year old immigrant will in turn need 4 immigrants to replace them when they retire...). You only have to continue this for a few more centuries before you've quite literally run out of humans to import.

Ultimately, we have no choice but to either grow the fertility rate to replacement, or just accept a declining population and declining workforce as an economic fact. (Raising the retirement age could be a remedy to some extent, but there's a limit to how far you can go with this barring some far-fetched sci-fi tech that prevents aging...).

This really doesn’t get enough attention. By earliest estimates, the world population is going to peak by 2050. How will the western world continue the Ponzi scheme at that point? Maybe we’ll see a return of slavery (the current indentured servant/fake student scheme being proof that Canadians have an appetite for labour exploitation as long as it protects the bottom line).

The integration/assimulation debate is a waste of time. Outside of message boards and a few hard right wing groups, no one cares. Affordability and qualify of life has turned Canadians against immigration.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Celine Dion's own website doesn't use an accent in her name. "Celine Dion was born on March 30, 1968, in Charlemagne, Québec, a little town 50 kilometers from Montréal. She was the 14th child of Thérèse Tanguay and Adhémar Dion."

Obviously, the correct way to write that in English would’ve been “Celine Dion was born on March 30, 1968, in Charlemagne, Quebec, a little town 50 kilometers from Montreal. She was the 14th child of Therese Tanguay and Adhemar Dion.”

Celine Dion’s website isn’t infallible, as we can see

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Hecate

The documentary about her on Amazon prime didn’t even use the accent. lol

Originally Posted by Hecate

I think most accents are just dropped for laziness.

That "laziness" doesn't exist with non-French Canadian names for some reasons... Even the Francophones of Europe get their accents in the New York Times. The fact that French Canadian place names and people's names routinely get their accents omitted in US media is a sign of a subconscious historical hangup. Centuries of hostility to 'French papists' in New England still apparently largely looming in their psyche, at a subconscious level. There's a tendency to negate the alterity of the French fact in North America. But I find it particularly ironic in a woke media like NYT who make great efforts to place all the complicated accents and diacritics on Czech or Polish names, but somehow have trouble with a simple French é.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

If you insist on putting words in other people's mouths, then doubling down when you are called out on it, you will face consequences. Fair warning.

I've re-read several times and don't see what he did that was so bad. Or even that grossly inaccurate?

Certainly no worse than accusing people who are simply reading the tea leaves (ie many Canadians would like immigrants to integrate better) of personally wanting an all-white Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I personally think it's ridiculous to include accents. They are Englisih papers write in English. Should they right Pytin?

Then why did they go for "Beijing" instead of traditional English "Peking"?

[Acajack]

Most of Europe did in fact obtain and achieve a high degree of assimilation on the part of newcomers until fairly recently. A couple of decades maybe? A series of factors both global and internal changed that though.

But it's false to claim that assimilation is an impossible goal when it was done for centuries. But sure it may be a lot harder today.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

You illustrate my point well. As with any relationship, the dynamic is formed by both parties but can be fixed in place by an unwillingness of either to understand the other side. Europe can be an unwelcoming place for immigrants because it desires a kind of assimilation that creates resistance among the immigrant population. It’s not about being right or wrong, good or bad, but rather about creating healthy, functional relationships for both sides. Canada does a better job of that because we are less fixed culturally. I am not saying Europe needs to change but expecting complete assimilation is also not a viable goal. So you have a stand-off, as we see today to some degree.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Stop spamming the thread then.

How is he spamming?

Moreso than gross or silly memes like we often see on here?

[Acajack]

You seem to think the US has hang-ups about French and France.

I don't think they really do that much. Bottom line is they don't really care and aren't attuned to this stuff.

Spanish is more on their radar for obvious reasons.

Now the British and Anglo-Canadians are another story altogether!

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The New York Times (and various other US media) certainly still make a point of writing Montreal and Quebec without any accents (all while dutifully writing Guantánamo and other Spanish place names with their accents).

I've always found it so funny (and revealing on many levels).

At my Ivy League university in the US I had to wait for 6 months to get my Master's degree with the accent on my name. One has to be patient! (you had to go to a special desk to make a special request to get your name written with its accents)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ I'd like an answer from a Quebecer. Not from a Frenchman who lives thousands of kilometres away, who thinks his obsession about Muslims translates to Canada.

Isn't it almost conventional wisdom in the ROC that Quebec Bill 21 on secularism is not-so-secretly motivated by islamophobia?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Isn't it almost conventional wisdom in the ROC that Quebec Bill 21 on secularism is not-so-secretly motivated by islamophobia?

Perhaps. But I'm curious to know how the views on immigration have evolved given the recent flood of South Asians. Most of whom aren't Muslim.

Or are you suggesting that the immigration debate in Quebec right now is entirely about Muslims not fitting in?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The veil is substantially a French obsession. I don't think Québec is nearly as obsessed about this as France. Especially given that Canada's recent immigrant mix is substantially more likely to have Hindus than Muslims.

Obsession or not, there are way more Muslim immigrants in Québec than Hindus.