DENVER | Main Development Thread #6 - Page 440

RyanD · #**8781** Posted **Jul 19, 2016, 9:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dirt

That I.M. Pei building in the background is getting painted silver. This is like the 4th building to get a new coat of paint or a recladding in the last year or so.

I didn't even notice it but now I can see it. Here's a larger image. I don't like it...

corey · #**8782** Posted **Jul 20, 2016, 3:29 AM**

What f'ing idiot decided to paint Pei's Mile High Center silver? After 60 years some a-hole thinks they know better than the original architect and feels the building really needs to "blend in" or something. Way to suck the life out of another building. They probably don't even know who I.M. Pei is. The vertical lines were meant to constrast with the black background of the building. I also hate how the Petroleum Club building was vandalized, um remodeled, several years ago. The best mid-century architecture urgently needs to be landmarks do and preserved before it's too late.

rds70 · #**8783** Posted **Jul 20, 2016, 4:34 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Some observations regarding our taller (projects over 200') development trends:

Of the 22 or so projects over 200', 2 are complete, 13 are under construction, 2 are extremely close to starting construction (Coloradan and 21st/Welton), 4 are proposals working way through process, and 1 is basically a pipe dream (Bell Tower).
The 4 proposals that are likely to become reality are: Block 162 Office, Block 162 Hotel, Block 173 Hotel, and Residential tower at Colorado Center.
Only one residential project (Colorado Center) over 200' is proposed.
Based on previous inventory, that's not a lot in pipeline. Seems as if the development community is being conservative on future demand to warrant height. It will be interesting to see if anyone pulls the trigger on anything in 2016.

An update to the Colorado Center residential project:

The tower is 20 stories, with a height of 243 feet, will be the tallest building in the project to date. It will include 316 units in the low- and high-rise sections. The ground floor will also have an additional 23,000 square feet of retail space. The building permit for the project is currently under review by the City. Here is the latest rendering:

wong21fr · #**8784** Posted **Jul 20, 2016, 4:49 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I'd also be curious where you got this. And is it in real dollars, or as a rate. Because property values are certainly much lower.

Also hard to know what "average" means in Colorado. You can pay 78 mills in Park Hill, or cross the street and pay 134 mils in Stapleton. To say nothing of rates in some of the more far flung suburbs. "Average" doesn't mean much.

Rate.

RyanD · #**8785** Posted **Jul 20, 2016, 3:04 PM**

Le Meridien/AC Hotel:

Brick, paneling, and blank wall going up!

EngiNerd · #**8786** Posted **Jul 20, 2016, 3:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I'd also be curious where you got this. And is it in real dollars, or as a rate. Because property values are certainly much lower.

Also hard to know what "average" means in Colorado. You can pay 78 mills in Park Hill, or cross the street and pay 134 mils in Stapleton. To say nothing of rates in some of the more far flung suburbs. "Average" doesn't mean much.

150 mils for me

PLANSIT · #**8787** Posted **Jul 20, 2016, 7:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds70

An update to the Colorado Center residential project:

The tower is 20 stories, with a height of 243 feet, will be the tallest building in the project to date. It will include 316 units in the low- and high-rise sections. The ground floor will also have an additional 23,000 square feet of retail space. The building permit for the project is currently under review by the City. Here is the latest rendering:

Awesome. Edited.

Thanks.

The Dirt · #**8788** Posted **Jul 20, 2016, 8:34 PM**

Okay, the I.M. Pei building has now painted a lot of those silver panels back to black. I'm thinking that they're probably either been silver underneath all along or that was primer, and they're just re-painting the building with a fresh coat of the same existing color. Crisis over, so you can all come out of your bunkers.

seventwenty · #**8789** Posted **Jul 20, 2016, 9:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Crisis over, so you can all come out of your bunkers.

This is SSP-Denver. We're always in our bunkers for something.

bunt_q · #**8790** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 4:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Rate.

Rate seems pretty irrelevant to me. I go back to the classic example of Chicago. It makes no difference that their property tax rates are double ours when the value of equivalent property is half of ours. If a person isn't trying to get rich off of property, and just wants a comfortable roof over their heads, I'd rather lower values and higher taxes (which equal better services). That seems more logical to me than a high cost and low service climate, which is what we are creating here.

RyanD · #**8791** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 5:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Rate seems pretty irrelevant to me. I go back to the classic example of Chicago. It makes no difference that their property tax rates are double ours when the value of equivalent property is half of ours. If a person isn't trying to get rich off of property, and just wants a comfortable roof over their heads, I'd rather lower values and higher taxes (which equal better services). That seems more logical to me than a high cost and low service climate, which is what we are creating here.

Totally agreed. Double, even triple, property taxes aren't going to exceed Denver's housing costs if your base price is half of what you would pay here. In this market, I think people are just wanting a roof over their heads and want a property to own themselves. That's all I want, I don't care about the resell value right now. I just want something I can invest into and make my home...

Anyways, Dairy Block is looking nice:

Dairy Block:

TakeFive · #**8792** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 6:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Rate seems pretty irrelevant to me. I go back to the classic example of Chicago. It makes no difference that their property tax rates are double ours when the value of equivalent property is half of ours. If a person isn't trying to get rich off of property, and just wants a comfortable roof over their heads, I'd rather lower values and higher taxes (which equal better services). That seems more logical to me than a high cost and low service climate, which is what we are creating here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanD

Totally agreed. Double, even triple, property taxes aren't going to exceed Denver's housing costs if your base price is half of what you would pay here. In this market, I think people are just wanting a roof over their heads and want a property to own themselves. That's all I want, I don't care about the resell value right now. I just want something I can invest into and make my home...

Anyways, Dairy Block is looking nice:

Dairy Block has to be one of the niftier developments and yes, it's looking good.

Different state's taxation models are impressively confusing to sort out.

I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona's property taxes go higher over time, partly from increasing property valuations but also as the state attempts to rearrange the tax system. They seem to prefer a Texas model of lower income taxes which may as a result put pressure on property taxes. I'm still skeptical they will eliminate the income tax entirely but it will go lower. With tourism being a top economic engine, sales taxes will never go lower.

Colorado, at some point needs to address PERA's unfunded liabilities - more than they already have. At the least they're way ahead of Illinois/Chicago which is like watching reruns of the Three Stooges. Props to Rahm though as he has downtown Chicago cranking.

wong21fr · #**8793** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 6:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona's property taxes go higher over time, partly from increasing property valuations but also as the state attempts to rearrange the tax system. They seem to prefer a Texas model of lower income taxes which may as a result put pressure on property taxes. I'm still skeptical they will eliminate the income tax entirely but it will go lower. With tourism being a top economic engine, sales taxes will never go lower.

I'm hoping that Arizona adopts the Kansas model- it would eliminate AZ as a competitor in the battle for corporations.

EngiNerd · #**8794** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 6:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Rate seems pretty irrelevant to me. I go back to the classic example of Chicago. It makes no difference that their property tax rates are double ours when the value of equivalent property is half of ours. If a person isn't trying to get rich off of property, and just wants a comfortable roof over their heads, I'd rather lower values and higher taxes (which equal better services). That seems more logical to me than a high cost and low service climate, which is what we are creating here.

100% agree. Just look at metro district vs. non-metro district neighborhoods in the Denver area for an example. Comparing areas with the same land values, houses are priced the same in either, whether or not they have 50mils of property tax or 150 mils

balugajames · #**8795** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 7:42 PM**

Another proposal on city scapes website:

This side of town is changing so fast!
http://www.denver-cityscape.com/

TakeFive · #**8796** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 8:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I'm hoping that Arizona adopts the Kansas model- it would eliminate AZ as a competitor in the battle for corporations.

No chance. I follow that clustermess in Kansas enough to know the idiocy of what they're doing. Talk about Keystone Kops.

While I wouldn't be the biggest fan of Gov. Ducey, like most politicians, it's not what they say but what they do that counts. He's definitely helped to turn this listless ship around. I don't think on the whole that they compete with Colorada a whole lot. Phoenix is more of a manufacturing kind of place and has set out to mend any needed fences with Mexico which is their biggest trade partner by far. Unless the conversation is about an Apple, for example, where they'll give away whatever they have in order to compete with Texas, their incentives may not be as good as Colorado's. They do have affordability on their side and they will move mountains to cut or complete any red tape.

Denver Dweller · #**8797** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 9:03 PM**

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/07/21/denver-city-council-development-no-parking/

Denver Dweller · #**8798** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 9:07 PM**

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/07/21/cherry-creek-mall-charge-parking/

mhays · #**8799** Posted **Jul 21, 2016, 10:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denver Dweller

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/07/21/denver-city-council-development-no-parking/

The old question of whether developers buy into the no/low-parking concept seems to have been answered.

Now the Council will apparently decide whether they're for affordability or not.

bunt_q · #**8800** Posted **Jul 22, 2016, 1:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays

The old question of whether developers buy into the no/low-parking concept seems to have been answered.

Now the Council will apparently decide whether they're for affordability or not.

Not a chance the Council allows it in its current form. People were okay with 5 or 10 units here and there. But large buildings, with dozens of units, and no parking, there's not a chance. In this Denver political environment, they'd get crucified.

Interesting data I came across at work yesterday. Over the last five years, the City and County of Denver has averaged 2.30% average population growth per year. Over that same period, the growth in vehicle registrations averaged 3.54% per year. We are adding cars even faster than people. I'll admit that even surprised me.