General Retail News

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

Mother says many small town Americans don't have passports - and so can't cross-border shop.

Mother is right, as usual. I have spent a hell of a lot of time in upstate NY and the vast majority of people you meet in Ogdensburg, Potsdam, Canton, Malone, etc. don't have passports, have never been to Canada and strangely enough have no idea that Ottawa exists... a metropolitan area of 1.5 million people 45 minutes away... it's a really weird place, Upstate NY.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Mother is right, as usual. I have spent a hell of a lot of time in upstate NY and the vast majority of people you meet in Ogdensburg, Potsdam, Canton, Malone, etc. don't have passports, have never been to Canada and strangely enough have no idea that Ottawa exists... a metropolitan area of 1.5 million people 45 minutes away... it's a really weird place, Upstate NY.

Maybe it is time for dollar deals in Canada? For instance, retailers, at least in Ottawa, should offer American shoppers a rate on the dollar equivalent to the 2000 level (about 65 cents) as promotions...and then advertise it big time...

[Schattenjager]

What are some of your theories as to why Ottawa has generally been overlooked by retail companies in the past?

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Schattenjager

What are some of your theories as to why Ottawa has generally been overlooked by retail companies in the past?

Mainly its size and location...but language laws in Quebec are starting to turn the upper hand its way. Another factor was possibly lack of space available.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

I also lived in various parts of the city including suburbs. This is how I know it and believe me, I know it very well.

Sadly, it suffers from the "nivellement par le bas" (race to the bottom) complex as well as rampant nombrilisme and don't get me started with their arrogance.

Amen.

Only someone who has both lived in Montreal and outside of Montreal can truly comprehend what you've just written.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Mainly its size and location...but language laws in Quebec are starting to turn the upper hand its way. Another factor was possibly lack of space available.

You really have an axe to grind on this don't you?

Either way I don't think it's a determining factor in most cases. H&M and many other chains are in Montreal and not in Ottawa. You may get the odd chain that will set up in Ottawa before Montreal, and some may set up in Montreal even before Toronto.

I believe Salvatore Ferragamo's only store in Canada is in Vancouver.

And Aéropostale, which is very American in spite of its name, opened its first store in the province of Quebec in... Chicoutimi.

So there you go.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Mainly its size and location...but language laws in Quebec are starting to turn the upper hand its way. Another factor was possibly lack of space available.

Too close proximity to Montreal and a perception that public servants are tightwads who don't like to spend a lot of money on fancy clothes.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You really have an axe to grind on this don't you?

Either way I don't think it's a determining factor in most cases. H&M and many other chains are in Montreal and not in Ottawa. You may get the odd chain that will set up in Ottawa before Montreal, and some may set up in Montreal even before Toronto.

I believe Salvatore Ferragamo's only store in Canada is in Vancouver.

And Aéropostale, which is very American in spite of its name, opened its first store in the province of Quebec in... Chicoutimi.

So there you go.

Even though you weren't asking me ... The irony is that the same axe is being ground by you from the opposite end.

Why does the possibility of language laws possibly hampering business bother you so much? Is it perhaps a bit of fear that there's some truth to it?

Your entire argument against language is based on facts from the past, yet doesn't acknowledge the newly-revived reality in Quebec. That is, since last year a separatist government is back in power, is only a few seats shy of majority rule, and has it as stated policy to renew the attack English. Do you really believe that this doesn't make business nervous, or even angry?

You cite examples of business in Montreal and not in Ottawa, but how about the other way?

- Goodlife Fitness as a brand isn't in Montreal but is in Ottawa. Why?
- Petsmart isn't in Montreal but is in Ottawa. Why?
- Tip Top Tailors isn't in Montreal but is in Ottawa. Why?
- Costco moved its headquarters from Montreal to Ottawa some years ago. Why?
- Nordstrom hasn't on its initial plans a Montreal store, but it does Ottawa. Why?
- Saks hasn't on its initial plans a Montreal store, but it does Ottawa. Why?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Schattenjager

What are some of your theories as to why Ottawa has generally been overlooked by retail companies in the past?

Partly lack of space (or lack of willingness to fix up old buildings, see Chaudière Islands, Sparks and Ogilvy) and partly the lack of big business and rich people.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Even though you weren't asking me ... The irony is that the same axe is being ground by you from the opposite end.

Why does the possibility of language laws possibly hampering business bother you so much? Is it perhaps a bit of fear that there's some truth to it?

Your entire argument against language is based on facts from the past, yet doesn't acknowledge the newly-revived reality in Quebec. That is, since last year a separatist government is back in power, is only a few seats shy of majority rule, and has it as stated policy to renew the attack English. Do you really believe that this doesn't make business nervous, or even angry?

I never disputed the fact that it can put a damper on business, but historically it has not affected retail so much because people still want to sell and Quebec is a big enough market that even if they don't like such things they simply hold their noses and enter the market anyway. Except for the whole issue about adding a few words like LES ENTREPÔTS COSTCO which pisses them off at the moment, I don't really see what would change much for retail chains operating in Quebec. Old Navy, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, etc. have all been operating in French here for years anyway.

Where it has a bigger impact is with head offices and such. This is certainly true.

But honestly, most international chains have stores all around the world operating in Japanese, Slovenian and Russian. They don't really care whether their store in Montreal has to operate in English, French or Cree.

Probably the only chains for whom it is an issue are American ones who have limited North American focus and think the entire world speaks English at the dinner table.

And in any event, I don't really see what the big deal is about getting a pat on the head like a good doggy from these chains anyway. Sure I like some of them but it's not a question of life or death. I'd much rather see us develop more of our own unique brands than try and copy everyone else. And this applies to Ottawa, Montreal, Ontario, Quebec... wherever.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

- Goodlife Fitness as a brand isn't in Montreal but is in Ottawa. Why?
- Petsmart isn't in Montreal but is in Ottawa. Why?
- Tip Top Tailors isn't in Montreal but is in Ottawa. Why?
- Costco moved its headquarters from Montreal to Ottawa some years ago. Why?
- Nordstrom hasn't on its initial plans a Montreal store, but it does Ottawa. Why?
- Saks hasn't on its initial plans a Montreal store, but it does Ottawa. Why?

GoodLife is in Quebec in fact. It is known as VitaVie.

And I don't think we have seen a final list of Saks yet anyway, so it's premature to say they won't be in Montreal.

[S-Man]

This could get ugly. And, unfortunately, I'm all too likely to join in.

The possibility has to exist that American (etc) retailers with well-identified corporate brands might not want to set up (their first) shop in Quebec, due to language issues. For one thing, the staff would need to be fully bilingual (at the very least), and then there's the name/logo/marketing that would have to change for that one location.

The situation is what it is. It COULD be the case in some cases...

[vanatox]

Petsmart..... hahahaha

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

Petsmart..... hahahaha

Yeah, I know. I was gonna say. They need a new name if they are gonna come over here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by S-Man

This could get ugly. And, unfortunately, I'm all too likely to join in.

The possibility has to exist that American (etc) retailers with well-identified corporate brands might not want to set up (their first) shop in Quebec, due to language issues. For one thing, the staff would need to be fully bilingual (at the very least), and then there's the name/logo/marketing that would have to change for that one location.

The situation is what it is. It COULD be the case in some cases...

Agreed. In some cases it is definitely possible.

But to the point where it will actually give Ottawa the upper hand over Montreal is future retail implantations?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by S-Man

This could get ugly. And, unfortunately, I'm all too likely to join in.

The possibility has to exist that American (etc) retailers with well-identified corporate brands might not want to set up (their first) shop in Quebec, due to language issues. For one thing, the staff would need to be fully bilingual (at the very least), and then there's the name/logo/marketing that would have to change for that one location.

The situation is what it is. It COULD be the case in some cases...

For many American retailers that have hitherto operated only in the US (and perhaps the rest of Canada), Quebec has often been the place where they have first come to the realization that the entire world does not operate in English.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

GoodLife is in Quebec in fact. It is known as VitaVie.

And I don't think we have seen a final list of Saks yet anyway, so it's premature to say they won't be in Montreal.

Is there a list of Saks locations currently?

As for the Language Police issue, I agree that it has had limited impact on retailers coming into the Quebec market, although I'm sure they all think it's a pain in the ass. And I also agree that the loss of head offices is where these overkill language laws really punched a gaping hole in the Quebec economy. We only have to look at the stock exchange and the big banks. For most of Canadian History, Montreal was the financial capital of Canada but when Levesque came along and then when he introduced the language laws (although to be fair, even he thought they were overkill at the time, I believe Pariseau was the one who pushed it to far) the bank HQ moved out to Toronto; RBC 1976 and BMO 1977, although they still have their "legal" HQs in Montreal as to not piss off the Québec population and the other banks have significantly reduced there presence since the mid 70s.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

GoodLife is in Quebec in fact. It is known as VitaVie.

Never heard of VitaVie, but I have heard of and go to Energie Cardio. They are owned by GoodLife and the membership of one is valid at the other.

Anyway, you'll notice in my original post that I said GoodLife as a brand ... They tried to expand into Quebec some years ago (first locations were the grocery in-house women's only type) but then I believe the OQLF got a hold of them.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For many American retailers that have hitherto operated only in the US (and perhaps the rest of Canada), Quebec has often been the place where they have first come to the realization that the entire world does not operate in English.

Sometimes those stores will take a little more time to come in quebec because they have to study the market, have different marketing, deal with an other language... One of the recent example is Target. They are opening a few months to almost a year after some other places in Canada because it takes more time to adapt to the different market as explained in this article:

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie...t-lautomne.php

"Pour le Québec et l'est du Canada, où Target prévoit 40 magasins en tout, c'est à Montréal, dans l'arrondissement St-Laurent, que le détaillant a implanté ses bureaux d'administration régionaux. Quelque 70 personnes y travaillent afin, notamment, d'adapter la commercialisation de Target aux spécificités du marché québécois, tant linguistiques que commerciales. En fait, le Québec constitue pour Target le premier marché d'importance non anglophone dans lequel il s'implante hors de son fief aux États-Unis, où il s'est développé pour devenir le principal concurrent de Wal-Mart. Target doit aussi s'ajuster à des réglementations spécifiques au Québec, notamment en ce qui concerne l'implantation de pharmacies en franchise dans chacun de ses magasins. «Nous ne sommes pas aussi avancés à ce sujet au Québec par rapport au reste du Canada», a admis Sébastien Bouchard, porte-parole de Target à son bureau régional de Montréal."

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Agreed. In some cases it is definitely possible.

But to the point where it will actually give Ottawa the upper hand over Montreal is future retail implantations?

Ottawa is becoming a bigger, more attractive city for business investment and the trend will continue, while language laws in Québec keep getting tighter and tighter making Montreal more of a pain to do business.

Both the Nordstrom and Saks introduction to Canada might be the start of a new era where Ottawa attracts more new business than Montreal. It is still early in the introduction of these stores. Nordstrom could announce more locations before the opening of the Ottawa store (although I doubt it; Cadillac Fairview likely has a monopoly on Nordstrom Canada for x number of years and they haven't kicked out any Sears locations in Québec, but they could build a new store) and we really don't know what will happen with Saks; it is nothing more than speculation at this point.