Highways in Canada

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Extending a divided A-20 to Rimouski seems plausible in the medium term, as does the twinning of several NB super-2s given your province's aggressive (by Canadian standards) highway program.

But twinning the 132 in the Matapédia valley seems extremely unlikely. If you've driven it in many winding stretches it's tightly nestled between the mountains on one side and the river down below.

I have driven the Matapedia (twice), and am also familiar with this route via taking the train as well. It is a splendid trip with great scenery. I know what you mean, and it may indeed be impractical. I imagine full grade separation is impossible, and in places, private highway access for driveways would be necessary. The valley however would be wide enough for a four lane road with a concrete divider. It wouldn't be full interstate standard, but it would be an improvement.

Ideally I would like to see a full grade separated freeway all the way to Campbellton from Moncton. I think such a route is important for nation (province) building, and would help the economic prospects of the north shore of NB. Right now the route is divided as far as Shediac Bridge, and will be divided as far as the Cocagne river within 1-2 years. The Liberals wanted to divide it as far as the Little Bouctouche River, but these plans were scrapped by the Higgs government when the Conservatives were elected.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I have driven the Matapedia (twice), and am also familiar with this route via taking the train as well. It is a splendid trip with great scenery. I know what you mean, and it may indeed be impractical. I imagine full grade separation is impossible, and in places, private highway access for driveways would be necessary. The valley however would be wide enough for a four lane road with a concrete divider. It wouldn't be full interstate standard, but it would be an improvement.

Ideally I would like to see a full grade separated freeway all the way to Campbellton from Moncton. I think such a route is important for nation (province) building, and would help the economic prospects of the north shore of NB. Right now the route is divided as far as Shediac Bridge, and will be divided as far as the Cocagne river within 1-2 years. The Liberals wanted to divide it as far as the Little Bouctouche River, but these plans were scrapped by the Higgs government when the Conservatives were elected.

I agree. Divide 11-8-11 then 17 or QC-132 from there on, and we have an alternative route to come in.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I have driven the Matapedia (twice), and am also familiar with this route via taking the train as well. It is a splendid trip with great scenery. I know what you mean, and it may indeed be impractical. I imagine full grade separation is impossible, and in places, private highway access for driveways would be necessary. The valley however would be wide enough for a four lane road with a concrete divider. It wouldn't be full interstate standard, but it would be an improvement.

Ideally I would like to see a full grade separated freeway all the way to Campbellton from Moncton. I think such a route is important for nation (province) building, and would help the economic prospects of the north shore of NB. Right now the route is divided as far as Shediac Bridge, and will be divided as far as the Cocagne river within 1-2 years. The Liberals wanted to divide it as far as the Little Bouctouche River, but these plans were scrapped by the Higgs government when the Conservatives were elected.

When I was a kid the 132 down the Matapédia was the go-to route for Christmas trips from wherever it was we lived in central Canada to visit family in N or NE New Brunswick.

But at some point as the route via Edmundston and St-Quentin improved that's what we would take.

Obviously going to other parts of the Maritimes we'd go through Edmundston-Fredericton on the TCH.

The 132 Matapédia of my memory was a snowy scenic paradise though a bit of a white-knuckle run with snow-laden logging trucks dumping a bit of the white stuff on your windshield as they rounded the curves.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

MTO uses orange line paintings in construction zones to indicate that you are in one.

Oh ok cheers

[Denscity]

Just did some math on day drives from Castlegar:

Calgary 619kms
Vancouver 620kms
Seattle 625kms

Talk about a central city!

[craner]

^Cool.
You should become a Flames fan since you’re closest to us.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by craner

^Cool.
You should become a Flames fan since you’re closest to us.

Haha! Yes I am technically 1km closer to you guys!

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Just did some math on day drives from Castlegar:

Calgary 619kms
Vancouver 620kms
Seattle 625kms

Talk about a central city!

Which one is closest in terms of travel time?

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Which one is closest in terms of travel time?

Flying is identical through AC Express at 1 hour 5 minutes.

Driving I think the edge goes to Calgary because Highway 3 to Hope towards Vancouver is super windy and veers north a couple of times at Greenwood and Princeton instead of following the US border west.
Highway 3 West looks like a heart monitor readout.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I have driven the Matapedia (twice), and am also familiar with this route via taking the train as well. It is a splendid trip with great scenery. I know what you mean, and it may indeed be impractical. I imagine full grade separation is impossible, and in places, private highway access for driveways would be necessary. The valley however would be wide enough for a four lane road with a concrete divider. It wouldn't be full interstate standard, but it would be an improvement.

Ideally I would like to see a full grade separated freeway all the way to Campbellton from Moncton. I think such a route is important for nation (province) building, and would help the economic prospects of the north shore of NB. Right now the route is divided as far as Shediac Bridge, and will be divided as far as the Cocagne river within 1-2 years. The Liberals wanted to divide it as far as the Little Bouctouche River, but these plans were scrapped by the Higgs government when the Conservatives were elected.

I’m originally from Restigouche county, to be frank I don’t think the region would benefit from twinning aside from improved safety. If anything that project would destroy its own economic value given how much the population has declined and the existence of a railway for freight whose demand could be cannibalized. For most travelling west it’s much faster to go through Edmundston. Liberal plans for twinned highways going north just seem like pandering to their voter base, fiscally speaking Higgs is right. If the north saw the start of an economic miracle things could be different, but it’s a long way to reaching a 1960s level of population.

Matapédia is a nice region I’ve travelled through every couple years or so. I have similar reasons for being a skeptic on a 4 lane wide 132, but it would definitely be more expensive. I don’t think they would go past Amqui for such a project, probably not even past Rimouski for the 20. Between the river, mountains and a small amount of traffic, it would be as advisable as a 4 lane Cabot Trail.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

I’m originally from Restigouche county, to be frank I don’t think the region would benefit from twinning aside from improved safety. If anything that project would destroy its own economic value given how much the population has declined and the existence of a railway for freight whose demand could be cannibalized. For most travelling west it’s much faster to go through Edmundston. Liberal plans for twinned highways going north just seem like pandering to their voter base, fiscally speaking Higgs is right. If the north saw the start of an economic miracle things could be different, but it’s a long way to reaching a 1960s level of population.

Matapédia is a nice region I’ve travelled through every couple years or so. I have similar reasons for being a skeptic on a 4 lane wide 132, but it would definitely be more expensive. I don’t think they would go past Amqui for such a project, probably not even past Rimouski for the 20. Between the river, mountains and a small amount of traffic, it would be as advisable as a 4 lane Cabot Trail.

I wonder if such a 4-lane divided freeway will boost tourism though. (Once Atlantic Canada is "reopened", that is.) I find N.B.-2 boring after Freddy... Plus, with the wooded median, every U-turn spot can give me a mini heart attack...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I wonder if such a 4-lane divided freeway will boost tourism though. (Once Atlantic Canada is "reopened", that is.) I find N.B.-2 boring after Freddy... Plus, with the wooded median, every U-turn spot can give me a mini heart attack...

I think these days it is a liability for any community not to be on a divided highway. You are suddenly "out of the way" and not on the way to anywhere else.

- NB 11 will be divided as far north as Cocagne.
- NB 11 should be divided at least as far as Bouctouche. This is the outer limit of the Moncton exurban commutershed.
- NB 8/11 eventually should be divided at some point in the future as far as Bathurst. This will bring Miramichi and Bathurst into the national highway grid.

On the other end, the A20 in Quebec should be divided from Riviere-du-Loup at least as far as Rimouski, and ideally as far as Mont Joli. Rimouski is really the capital of the Gaspesie and has a population of 50,000. It needs to be connected with the Quebec heartland.

The real sticking point will be the 132 in Quebec from Mont Joli to Amqui and then down the Matapedia to Pointe-a-la-Croix, and NB-11 from Bathurst to Campbellton. The population and traffic volumes in this region do not justify twinning, and the project would only make sense in terms of a national highways strategy (which Canada does not have).

I have always been a proponent of a national freeway system in Canada like the interstate system in the US, but that is just me. I know others are against it, and I realize the cost of such a system. It just strikes me as so Mickey Mouse that we are left with the system such as it is, with embarrassments such as only a since two lane road in east of Thunder Bay in northern Ontario connecting the two halves of the country together.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I wonder if such a 4-lane divided freeway will boost tourism though. (Once Atlantic Canada is "reopened", that is.) I find N.B.-2 boring after Freddy... Plus, with the wooded median, every U-turn spot can give me a mini heart attack...

That highway is wonderful.
The rest of the highways don't need to be 4 laned outside of the major centres.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

- NB 8/11 eventually should be divided at some point in the future as far as Bathurst. This will bring Miramichi and Bathurst into the national highway grid.

Until these areas show increasing, high-level population growth and sustained traffic to outside areas I really don't see the need. I don't think anyone consciously thinks about a national highway grid outside of a handful of interested spectators.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I wonder if such a 4-lane divided freeway will boost tourism though. (Once Atlantic Canada is "reopened", that is.) I find N.B.-2 boring after Freddy... Plus, with the wooded median, every U-turn spot can give me a mini heart attack...

I'm a big time believer that divided highways themselves do not generate tourism. They need to connect one population centre to another. Charlotte County has not seen a population or tourism boom since Route 1 was twinned from Lepreau to the US border, and that's a highway that funnels Americans from New England towards Nova Scotia and PEI.

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

I’m originally from Restigouche county, to be frank I don’t think the region would benefit from twinning aside from improved safety. If anything that project would destroy its own economic value given how much the population has declined and the existence of a railway for freight whose demand could be cannibalized. For most travelling west it’s much faster to go through Edmundston.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Liberal plans for twinned highways going north just seem like pandering to their voter base, fiscally speaking Higgs is right.

They absolutely are voter-pandering gifts.

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

If the north saw the start of an economic miracle things could be different, but it’s a long way to reaching a 1960s level of population.

Population decline will only worsen in the next few years as COVID has prevented the region from receiving sustainable international immigration from Q2 2020 to at least Q2 2021. The natural decrease in this area will only increase over time until sated by immigration.

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Matapédia is a nice region I’ve travelled through every couple years or so. I have similar reasons for being a skeptic on a 4 lane wide 132, but it would definitely be more expensive. I don’t think they would go past Amqui for such a project, probably not even past Rimouski for the 20. Between the river, mountains and a small amount of traffic, it would be as advisable as a 4 lane Cabot Trail.

Gaspesie faces the same problems Northern NB does - old, rural, declining population.

[Loco101]

We do need one freeway across most of Canada. Definitely from Halifax to Vancouver at the very least. It doesn't need to be federally controlled, but the federal government should come up with funds to complete it soon. It would really help our economy and mean that goods could be shipped more quickly. It should have a maximum speed of 110 km/h from end to end.

[Dengler Avenue]

but the federal government should come up with funds to complete it soon

I agree.
It's really hard for Queens Park to justify expanding highways in Northern Ontario when they're in the middle of nowhere for 100+ km.

Speaking of that, funny enough, yesterday I was driving on the ON-400. Maybe it was due to the pandemic and being a Saturday, but there was absolutely no car in my direction for a good distance of 20(!) km. When I saw one in front of me, it took me another 10 km to pass it. It really makes me think things.

Also, I finally understand why the terrain map on google shows the area from Port Severn to Estaire as mostly "flat" but why there are still deep rock cuts along the 400. The explanation? Those rock cuts aren't that deep after all even though they look huge. I imagined stacking a few of myselves next to those rock cuts to eyeball their depth, and I'd say that the average is ~ 3 - 4 m, with few exceeding 5 m (and very few 6 m).

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Speaking of that, funny enough, yesterday I was driving on the ON-400. Maybe it was due to the pandemic and being a Saturday, but there was absolutely no car in my direction for a good distance of 20(!) km. When I saw one in front of me, it took me another 10 km to pass it. It really makes me think things.

So you were doing a simulation run of NB Route 2 between Woodstock and Edmundston, then.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Until these areas show increasing, high-level population growth and sustained traffic to outside areas I really don't see the need. I don't think anyone consciously thinks about a national highway grid outside of a handful of interested spectators.

I'm a big time believer that divided highways themselves do not generate tourism. They need to connect one population centre to another. Charlotte County has not seen a population or tourism boom since Route 1 was twinned from Lepreau to the US border, and that's a highway that funnels Americans from New England towards Nova Scotia and PEI.

I agree with these points.

Not many people choose their vacation destinations with the caveat "We're only going there if there's a 4-lane freeway there".

While some would like to see a bunch of 2-lane highways converted, I'd wonder if funding for interchanges in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta might be a better value on the whole.

Maybe in the most highly trafficked spots expanding 2 lane highways is good value for money. Places like the BC interior on Highway 1. However, I've driven a bunch of Highway 11 and 17 in Ontario and much of them just so underused, relatively speaking. A Nipigon-Hearst freeway is a hideously bad use of money in an age where the governments are running huge deficits.

Highway improvements? Sure! More passing lanes and geometry improvements would be great.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

I agree with these points.

Not many people choose their vacation destinations with the caveat "We're only going there if there's a 4-lane freeway there".

While some would like to see a bunch of 2-lane highways converted, I'd wonder if funding for interchanges in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta might be a better value on the whole.

Maybe in the most highly trafficked spots expanding 2 lane highways is good value for money. Places like the BC interior on Highway 1. However, I've driven a bunch of Highway 11 and 17 in Ontario and much of them just so underused, relatively speaking. A Nipigon-Hearst freeway is a hideously bad use of money in an age where the governments are running huge deficits.

Highway improvements? Sure! More passing lanes and geometry improvements would be great.

Okay, I don't know how convincing this will be, but, in my defense, *nowadays*, just because I've drawn a map of proposed Highway 417 Extension, it doesn't mean that I will be up in my arms if it doesn't happen any time soon (particularly for the low-volume sections).

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Okay, I don't know how convincing this will be, but, in my defense, *nowadays*, just because I've drawn a map of proposed Highway 417 Extension, it doesn't mean that I will be up in my arms if it doesn't happen any time soon (particularly for the low-volume sections).

If you enjoy it and like exploring, you do you.

Sometimes the world needs dreamers and not cold pragmatists. Humanity wouldn't have gone to the moon if we didn't have dreamers.