Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You would think they would be getting pressured sufficiently on the transfer date. Especially given the penalties being exercised and the fact that the city is not waving the testing requirements. If they aren't, that's the city's fault at that point.

I should think the city would be worried with RTG's lackadaisical approach that keeps forcing an opening further into the winter. We're easily looking at probably an early Feb opening now. Do they want it even further into Feb?

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I think the problem is the penalties are insufficient. They have already paid the $1 million penalty (which is really just a rounding error in a 2.1B contract). There may be an incentive relating to the final payments and/or the financing, but we have so little detail about how the contract is structured that we don’t know if that is an incentive at all. The city may try to recoup some of costs related to the delay but we have no idea if that is in the contract either. Staff certainly gave the council the impression there were significant incentives associated with an on-time completion, which does not appear to be the case. I think an independent inquiry is in order.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think the problem is the penalties are insufficient. They have already paid the $1 million penalty (which is really just a rounding error in a 2.1B contract). There may be an incentive relating to the final payments and/or the financing, but we have so little detail about how the contract is structured that we don’t know if that is an incentive at all. The city may try to recoup some of costs related to the delay but we have no idea if that is in the contract either. Staff certainly gave the council the impression there were significant incentives associated with an on-time completion, which does not appear to be the case. I think an independent inquiry is in order.

I suspect the penalties do count for something, otherwise RTG wouldn't have kept trying to foist off dates like the end of August or the November partial opening. They just seem to be overly optimistic in their planning assumptions. It's not just that they have no slack, they seem to really put on the rose coloured glasses every time they update their plan. I'm sure they've given the city lots of new date options, i think Marconi just doesn't believe any date they give.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You would think they would be getting pressured sufficiently on the transfer date. Especially given the penalties being exercised and the fact that the city is not waving the testing requirements. If they aren't, that's the city's fault at that point.

I should think the city would be worried with RTG's lackadaisical approach that keeps forcing an opening further into the winter. We're easily looking at probably an early Feb opening now. Do they want it even further into Feb?

Honestly, now that opening is pushed into early 2019, the latter the better. A midwinter opening is really not ideal. The city should aim for March or April.

As for construction progress, judging by the partial deal that RTG was willing to offer, the only thing where there's significant work left is Rideau. We know the tracks/wiring are all completely done, trains are all done save for a couple, and the surface stations (the ones we can actually see) are all pretty much done save for little things. Judging by the pictures, Lyon and Parliament station are like that too. If Rideau can't be ready until say February no matter how much labour they throw at it, there's no point in planning to finish anything else before February. So it makes sense they'd slow down construction at the surface station to the point where the remaining work drags into February.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I suspect the penalties do count for something, otherwise RTG wouldn't have kept trying to foist off dates like the end of August or the November partial opening. They just seem to be overly optimistic in their planning assumptions. It's not just that they have no slack, they seem to really put on the rose coloured glasses every time they update their plan. I'm sure they've given the city lots of new date options, i think Marconi just doesn't believe any date they give.

I remain skeptical about these alleged partial opening offers from RTG. Most of the alleged terms are coming from rumours on twitter. I think it is more likely they offered to turn over completed components to the city, which is not the same as a viable partial opening. They’re still installing things like flooring in the downtown stations, which does not to me imply an imminent opening.

I think it more likely that money is running out and RTG cut back on overtime and other costs, which I think is the city’s fault for badly structuring the incentives in the contract.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I remain skeptical about these alleged partial opening offers from RTG. Most of the alleged terms are coming from rumours on twitter. I think it is more likely they offered to turn over completed components to the city, which is not the same as a viable partial opening. They’re still installing things like flooring in the downtown stations, which does not to me imply an imminent opening.

I think it more likely that money is running out and RTG cut back on overtime and other costs, which I think is the city’s fault for badly structuring the incentives in the contract.

RTG definitely suggested partial openings and soft launches, they're in the FEDCO presentation.

https://www.otrainfans.ca/blogs/delays-to-confederation-line-mean-missing-november-2018-opening (at the bottom of the page).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I remain skeptical about these alleged partial opening offers from RTG. Most of the alleged terms are coming from rumours on twitter. I think it is more likely they offered to turn over completed components to the city, which is not the same as a viable partial opening. They’re still installing things like flooring in the downtown stations, which does not to me imply an imminent opening.

I think it more likely that money is running out and RTG cut back on overtime and other costs, which I think is the city’s fault for badly structuring the incentives in the contract.

Absolutely agree. RTG does not seem to be moving to intercept the glide slope as we say in the flying world. All they seem to be doing is paralleling it. Every time they offer a new deadline, they also seem to cut back or slow down work. So I don’t blame Manconi for being extremely skeptical.

I also don’t think they could be trusted on that November offer. It’s very likely, they would have gone right to the brink on November 30th and then forced the city to accept further compromises. “How about you guys bypass Rideau for another month?”

Originally Posted by CityTech

Honestly, now that opening is pushed into early 2019, the latter the better. A midwinter opening is really not ideal. The city should aim for March or April.

We are well past the point of hoping for “ideal”. The city is burning millions running buses while waiting for the LRT. They will launch as soon as they can. Also, RTG will definitely not be covering bus costs after they handover.

Originally Posted by CityTech

As for construction progress, judging by the partial deal that RTG was willing to offer, the only thing where there's significant work left is Rideau. We know the tracks/wiring are all completely done, trains are all done save for a couple, and the surface stations (the ones we can actually see) are all pretty much done save for little things. Judging by the pictures, Lyon and Parliament station are like that too. If Rideau can't be ready until say February no matter how much labour they throw at it, there's no point in planning to finish anything else before February. So it makes sense they'd slow down construction at the surface station to the point where the remaining work drags into February.

Those “finishing touches” are time consuming. Simply demobilizing could take several weeks depending on the station and what equipment is involved. Especially given the pace that RTG is working at, with no real sense of urgency involved. I don’t buy for a second that they can’t finish Rideau in a month. Or that it’s some construction effort which is independent of labor. I would put up a paycheque that says they could finish in a week if they went 24/7. They just don’t have the financial incentive to do so. Clearly, the penalties weren’t stiff enough.

I share acottawa’s skepticism. I don’t think what they offered Manconi was sincere at all. They certain don’t seem to be on track to come close to what was offered.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I suspect the penalties do count for something, otherwise RTG wouldn't have kept trying to foist off dates like the end of August or the November partial opening. They just seem to be overly optimistic in their planning assumptions. It's not just that they have no slack, they seem to really put on the rose coloured glasses every time they update their plan. I'm sure they've given the city lots of new date options, i think Marconi just doesn't believe any date they give.

This is not “overly optimistic”. Look at the consortium. People are acting like these are newbies. It’s not like SNC-Lavalin, ACS/Dragados, Veolia and Alstom have no idea how to build a transit line or what slippages could potentially result. They are gaming completion to maximize every penny they can. I don’t blame them for doing that. I blame the city for not putting in some tougher penalties in the contract.

The consortium is making the conscious decision that penalties are cheaper than overtime. It’s pretty obvious.

And I think their “offers” are simply attempts at shifting risk. Doesn’t hurt to try. If the city is desperate enough to bit, RTG gets off the hook for not just timely delivery, but possibly lots of minor defects too.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

RTG definitely suggested partial openings and soft launches, they're in the FEDCO presentation.

https://www.otrainfans.ca/blogs/delays-to-confederation-line-mean-missing-november-2018-opening (at the bottom of the page).

Thanks for the link.

I would suggest "partial line openings and soft starts" is not the same thing as everything except the North Entrance of Rideau, which has been suggested several times on this thread as being RTG's offer.

To me it sounds like they were suggesting a Blair-Hurdman service, which is nice as an amusement park type ride (and personally I wish they had done it) but I would not really consider a partial opening as it would only had beneficial to a small number of riders.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Thanks for the link.

I would suggest "partial line openings and soft starts" is not the same thing as everything except the North Entrance of Rideau, which has been suggested several times on this thread as being RTG's offer.

To me it sounds like they were suggesting a Blair-Hurdman service, which is nice as an amusement park type ride (and personally I wish they had done it) but I would not really consider a partial opening as it would only had beneficial to a small number of riders.

I am pretty sure they were offering more. I strongly suspect that Rideau might have ended being bypassed though. I think if it was everything but the North Entrance of Rideau, it's quite likely the city would have considered that offer.

The real issue is a launch without sufficient testing. They launch, and start having failures and are forced to operate under capacity, and the city would have been on the hook. Not RTG. All while being forced to maintain bus detours.

I suspect RTG simply made the offer because it might help them in later arbitration on penalties and delay costs to be paid. I doubt it was a truly serious offer.

[CityTech]

A Blair-Hurdman service would have actually been really useful. Right now Cyrville is completely closed, the VIA station has slow infrequent service, and local travel between Hurdman, St. Laurent and Blair is difficult because of all the buses that skip them or only serve in some directions. For some riders a frequent Blair-Hurdman shuttle would be a godsend to have in the next few months while we wait for the LRT to fully open.

[OCCheetos]

Who would pay for the operational costs of a soft launch? The city obviously wouldn't since they'd still need to pay for bus service. I doubt RTG would want to especially when they can just take a $1 million flat penalty instead.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CityTech

A Blair-Hurdman service would have actually been really useful. Right now Cyrville is completely closed, the VIA station has slow infrequent service, and local travel between Hurdman, St. Laurent and Blair is difficult because of all the buses that skip them or only serve in some directions. For some riders a frequent Blair-Hurdman shuttle would be a godsend to have in the next few months while we wait for the LRT to fully open.

Useful. Sure. But at what cost and who would pay?

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Who would pay for the operational costs of a soft launch? The city obviously wouldn't since they'd still need to pay for bus service. I doubt RTG would want to especially when they can just take a $1 million flat penalty instead.

There's no way RTG pushed for a soft launch and was still willing to pay penalties, including the bussing costs. They would have argued that it's just fine if Rideau was closed and that passengers could transfer or OC Transpo could skip Rideau.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am pretty sure they were offering more. I strongly suspect that Rideau might have ended being bypassed though. I think if it was everything but the North Entrance of Rideau, it's quite likely the city would have considered that offer.

The real issue is a launch without sufficient testing. They launch, and start having failures and are forced to operate under capacity, and the city would have been on the hook. Not RTG. All while being forced to maintain bus detours.

I suspect RTG simply made the offer because it might help them in later arbitration on penalties and delay costs to be paid. I doubt it was a truly serious offer.

Maybe, but there is no ATC yet west of OttawaU so I am not sure what sort of service they could operate. There is so little transparency on this project it is hard to know what is going on.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Maybe, but there is no ATC yet west of OttawaU so I am not sure what sort of service they could operate. There is so little transparency on this project it is hard to know what is going on.

Curious where you read there was no ATC west of OttawaU. I missed that.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Curious where you read there was no ATC west of OttawaU. I missed that.

I think they meant that trains aren't using ATO West of uOttawa yet (as has been mentioned in the weekly updates).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

Bayview and Pimisi look spectacular IMO. I think it will be amazing to start with such a great looking and functional pieces and build the neighbourhood out from there. Let's see some shovels in the ground soon at Lebreton/Trinity! Time for a new arena too!

Too bad about the stupid paving stones that will have to be repaired every spring.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Too bad about the stupid paving stones that will have to be repaired every spring.

If so, at least it won't cost taxpayers anything as RTG is responsible for maintenance for then next 30 years.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I think they meant that trains aren't using ATO West of uOttawa yet (as has been mentioned in the weekly updates).

Yes, that is what I was trying to get at.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If so, at least it won't cost taxpayers anything as RTG is responsible for maintenance for then next 30 years.

I highly doubt exterior street paving is included in the maintenance agreement.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If so, at least it won't cost taxpayers anything as RTG is responsible for maintenance for then next 30 years.

I'd rather spend 30 years without the tripping hazards, thanks.