Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Culturally speaking I don't think they would be a backwater. If anything, Montréal as the primate Francophone city of a country finally on the map would probably become very hip in North America, kind of like Rome or Madrid in Europe. One could argue that they are more a backwater being a province of Canada with no international recognition.

No there isn't any reason to think culture would suffer. It could be a rennaisance in fact. Like Serbia or Greece they would be an economic backwater becaue of bad political decisions but other examples suggest culture isn't neccesarily something that would also suffer.

[New Brisavoine]

^^You're 3 or 4 years behind the curve. Greece is not an economic backwater anymore. With their center-right prime minister they have achieved very good economic growth in recent years.

I posted this on Twitter when the IMF published the figures in April (real GDP growth from 2019 to 2023):

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

No there isn't any reason to think culture would suffer. It could be a rennaisance in fact. Like Serbia or Greece they would be an economic backwater becaue of bad political decisions but other examples suggest culture isn't neccesarily something that would also suffer.

Quebec's culture, at least the French part of it, is inward enough that I don't see how it would suffer much if Quebec were an independent State. Quebec's English culture would continue to decline, perhaps more quickly than otherwise.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The US media sided with the Free French of de Gaulle against the Roosevelt administration regarding Saint Pierre and Miquelon, a far smaller territory than Québec, and that's a historical fact, not some speculation.

This is a conflict between two French regimes, Free French versus Vichy French.. and America wasn't even directly impacted by this conflict, so I don't see how this is relevant. Was it even broadly opined or covered by US media, and how many US politicians actually cared?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

This is a conflict between two French regimes, Free French versus Vichy French.. and America wasn't even directly impacted by this conflict, so I don't see how this is relevant. Was it even broadly opined or covered by US media, and how many US politicians actually cared?

Apparently you know very little about this issue. Read more here (in particular the "Aftermath" section): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captur...e_and_Miquelon

What they don't say is that the US press played a major role in forcing the Roosevelt administration (and in particular the US Secretary of State, who was completely enraged) to back down and let de Gaulle keep control of the islands. This is one instance when the US media supported a foreign leader against their own government (and this regarding some military action in the very own backyard of the US... I mean you can't make it closer from the heart of the US East Coast than SPM). No reason why it wouldn't happen again today if the US media found a foreign government more right than the US government.

PS: Also, the last sentence of that "Aftermath" section is wrong, Vichy France did not become an enemy of the US after Pearl Harbor. In fact Roosevelt supported Vichy way into 1943, almost until D-Day in fact. It is only in late October 1944 that the US administration FINALLY recognized de Gaulle's government as the legitimate government of France, after the Soviets and the Brits had become exasperated with Roosevelt's obstinate refusal to recognize the reality on the ground. De Gaulle famously quipped: "Le gouvernement français est satisfait qu’on veuille bien l’appeler par son nom."

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Quebec separating, sad to say, would be good for the rest of the country. They’d pay back their share of the national debt and we wouldn’t need to give them billions upon billions in equalization anymore. In their vain effort to preserve their language, they’d probably see a decline in usage faster, as that’s what isolation tends to do. Many national companies would pull out of the province and they’d see a massive decline in standard of living.

No it would not help anyone. I live in a region in Ontario that has a close relationship with the neighbouring region in Quebec. We are not opponents and we are part of the same federation. As I have said many times on here, no separatist in looking for hard borders. They want an economic union no matter what happens. And the most recent polls have sovereignty support at only about 35%.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by Loco101

No it would not help anyone. I live in a region in Ontario that has a close relationship with the neighbouring region in Quebec. We are not opponents and we are part of the same federation. As I have said many times on here, no separatist in looking for hard borders. They want an economic union no matter what happens. And the most recent polls have sovereignty support at only about 35%.

Blah blah blah. Let them go. No they don’t want hard borders? Then why leave or threaten to leave. Shit or get off the pot already. FFS. Quebec would lose a lot. As no Canadian out west would want to carry on giving money to a separate independent state.

[Hecate]

We’ve given them over 220 billion dollars in equalization. Quebec ___________. And they can’t even say thank you.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Blah blah blah. Let them go. No they don’t want hard borders? Then why leave or threaten to leave. Shit or get off the pot already. FFS. Quebec would lose a lot. As no Canadian out west would want to carry on giving money to a separate independent state.

Nor would an independent State be seeking or expecting same.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Hecate

We’ve given them over 220 billion dollars in equalization. Quebec would be a third world country if it wasn’t for the rest of Canada supporting them. And they can’t even say thank you.

This is utterly ridiculous. And if you are going to go down that ridiculous road, what would Alberta be if it had no hydro carbon resources? (Answer: another Saskatchewan).

Who is "we"? Are you personally sending your dollars to Quebec? Do you even understand how equalization payments work?


$1350 less per Capita would not turn Quebec into a "third world country". Besides Manitoba receives much more than Quebec, on a per capita basis. As do the three Maritime provinces.



And you speak for a small minority of people in the rest of Canada with your wishing for Quebec to separate.

[lio45]

Given the fact that Manitoba receives more equalization per capita than Quebec, in the event of Quebec sovereignty, the rest of Canada would be well-advised to use that opportunity to kick out that parasite province of Manitoba at the same time. The rest of Canada would be wealthier without those voracious Greater-Than-Quebec equalization-consuming Manitoban leeches! (Without Quebec, you couldn’t drive across the country within it anymore anyway, it would already become discontinuous, might as well purge the biggest leeches too while at it!)

[Hecate]

lol is manitoba threatening to separate every five years or so because they didn’t get their way? How much of Manitobas lack of prosperity is directly because of neglect from Ottawa? High rates of indigenous poverty as a result of decisions made by the people of Ontario and Quebec… I’d say you owe us.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

This is utterly ridiculous. And if you are going to go down that ridiculous road, what would Alberta be if it had no hydro carbon resources? (Answer: another Saskatchewan).

Who is "we"? Are you personally sending your dollars to Quebec? Do you even understand how equalization payments work?


$1350 less per Capita would not turn Quebec into a "third world country". Besides Manitoba receives much more than Quebec, on a per capita basis. As do the three Maritime provinces.



And you speak for a small minority of people in the rest of Canada with your wishing for Quebec to separate.

Federal funding contributed to start up the Alberta oil patch in the 50s and 60s when private investors were hesitant.

Not to mention that my parents like many people who grew up in central-eastern Canada remember putting together numerous care packages in their childhood, that were sent to people in Alberta and Saskatchewan so they wouldn't die of starvation during the drought.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by Hecate

lol is manitoba threatening to separate every five years or so because they didn’t get their way? How much of Manitobas lack of prosperity is directly because of neglect from Ottawa? High rates of indigenous poverty as a result of decisions made by the people of Ontario and Quebec… I’d say you owe us.

Please stop and shut up. You are embarrassing yourself and everyone else from Manitoba. You do not represent myself or any other Manitoban with your ridiculous and uneducated viewpoints.

[Acajack]

Oh and BTW the infrastructure that actually allowed the Prairies to be developed in the first place (most notably the railway) was paid for by Ontario and Quebec money.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Loco101

No it would not help anyone. I live in a region in Ontario that has a close relationship with the neighbouring region in Quebec. We are not opponents and we are part of the same federation. As I have said many times on here, no separatist in looking for hard borders. They want an economic union no matter what happens. And the most recent polls have sovereignty support at only about 35%.

As I alluded to above a soft border isn't really possible. Even if Canada was completely generous in the sense of agreeing to whatever Quebec wants as long as it doesn't direct hurt the rest of Canada just look at Brexit. Like Brexit the you can have your cake and eat it too fantasy is a good sales pitch. We learned the previous soverignty leaders had a secret plan to make a hard exit soon after a yes. I know many Quebecers would like their own passport reflecting their already exisiting feeling that they are their own nation and have a EU like arrangement with the rest of Canada but the EU is many nations. Quebec getting 1 vote out of 10 on currency, monetary policy etc would essentially mean having no say. A dual agreement would give them a veto and be unacceptable to Canada. As we renogiate nafta and give up supply management for Dairy would Quebec have the money to compensate their dairy farmers or try and opt out and keep it in Quebec. Everyone in Gatineau will cross the border for half price milk if it's wide open Probably also in West Montreal. Etc Etc. Better to be realistsic.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

As I alluded to above a soft border isn't really possible. Even if Canada was completely generous in the sense of agreeing to whatever Quebec wants as long as it doesn't direct hurt the rest of Canada just look at Brexit. Like Brexit the you can have your cake and eat it too fantasy is a good sales pitch. We learned the previous soverignty leaders had a secret plan to make a hard exit soon after a yes. I know many Quebecers would like their own passport reflecting their already exisiting feeling that they are their own nation and have a EU like arrangement with the rest of Canada but the EU is many nations. Quebec getting 1 vote out of 10 on currency, monetary policy etc would essentially mean having no say. A dual agreement would give them a veto and be unacceptable to Canada. As we renogiate nafta and give up supply management for Dairy would Quebec have the money to compensate their dairy farmers or try and opt out and keep it in Quebec. Everyone in Gatineau will cross the border for half price milk if it's wide open Probably also in West Montreal. Etc Etc. Better to be realistsic.

What percentage of influence does Quebec have in your mind on currency and monetary policy today?

It seems to me that Canadian policies on these fronts are an extremely difficult often impossible balancing act between sacrificing the energy sector (of say Alberta) or resources in general, versus hurting the manufacturing sector mostly concentrated in central Canada.

These two pillars of Canada's economy have wildly conflicting policy needs.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by lio45

Given the fact that Manitoba receives more equalization per capita than Quebec, in the event of Quebec sovereignty, the rest of Canada would be well-advised to use that opportunity to kick out that parasite province of Manitoba at the same time. The rest of Canada would be wealthier without those voracious Greater-Than-Quebec equalization-consuming Manitoban leeches! (Without Quebec, you couldn’t drive across the country within it anymore anyway, it would already become discontinuous, might as well purge the biggest leeches too while at it!)

Absolutely, Manitoba is a leech province with an annual "equalization" handout of $4.2B; which increased ~20% for this year. The poor child of Western Canada. Compare Manitoba to North Dakota and one will shake their hand just how much better off the average ND resident is vs. the average MB resident.

The rest of Canada wouldn't kick Manitoba out after a post independent Quebec. Just close off the equalization tap to all provinces receiving it. Really, there should be no such thing as equalization. Why should SK have to subsidize MB and QC?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Absolutely, Manitoba is a leech province with an annual "equalization" handout of $4.2B; which increased ~20% for this year. The poor child of Western Canada. Compare Manitoba to North Dakota and one will shake their hand just how much better off the average ND resident is vs. the average MB resident.

The rest of Canada wouldn't kick Manitoba out after a post independent Quebec. Just close off the equalization tap to all provinces receiving it. Really, there should be no such thing as equalization. Why should SK have to subsidize MB and QC?

I agree that if Quebec separated it might throw such a wrench in the governance of what remained of Canada that equalization might be scrapped.

That doesn't mean that equalization wasn't a good idea in the first place.

It took some time but it arguably played a big role in evening up living standards all across the country.

Which is of a course a positive, and not a negative.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree that if Quebec separated it might throw such a wrench in the governance of what remained of Canada that equalization might be scrapped.

That doesn't mean that equalization wasn't a good idea in the first place.

It took some time but it arguably played a big role in evening up living standards all across the country.

Which is of a course a positive, and not a negative.

That would be a great research topic; the impact federal equalization has had on a recipient province's standard of living. As well, one could argue recipient provinces may have become lax in their fiscal management; knowing there's equalization dollars to bail them out.