Ottawa's Byward Market

[Lakeofthewood]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is so obvious it's almost not worth a discussion. Are restaurant owners really clamouring for street parking? I get a few businesses like the fish market benefit from convenient parking and benefit not at all from tourists but surely a city can think of the bigger picture and not just whoever had $250 donations to city councillors.



That's not fair. It's one of the worst streets in the city. There is zero chance for street interaction though Canabis legalized has opened retail in those dark corners of the city.

Yes. 100% yes. This is why almost every BIA pushes against any removal of on-street parking. They think removal of parking = loss of revenue, and it doesn't matter what studies or examples you put in front of them.

[Richard Eade]

Sorry folks, but the way I see it; The By Ward Market has been in decline because fewer and fewer people are going there to buy things at an open-air market. This has forced the various ‘marketers’ to chase customers by setting up week-end markets out in the suburbs – in places where their customers can easily get to (often by car).

To be a successful merchant, you need to have thing to sell that are in demand, and you need enough customers to come and buy your products. Those customers can either come from the local surrounding, or come from afar. If there are not sufficient local customers, then there is a reliance on attracting additional customers from afar. To do that, the location needs to be a destination; one that does not have viable competition that is closer to those customers from afar.

Also, the merchant’s location needs to be easy to get to, by ALL methods of transportation. Barriers will reduce the number of customers from afar who are willing to travel.

Although it is getting better, there are still, probably, not enough people downtown to support the By Ward Market. The same is true for the Rideau Centre. That is why the Rideau Centre has lots of parking available, even though it was built with lots of public transit access.

Absolutely, a pedestrianized By Ward Market would be fantastic. I would love to see it become a destination for people from all across the city, animated with lots of market stalls and activities. But, in order for it to attract people to make the effort to go there, it must offer easy transportation to/from it. (And that also goes for within the area. I know several people who will never drive downtown because they get too frustrated by the One-Way streets.)

There is a lot of talk on this thread about simply removing parking and forcing folks to take transit if they are going to go anywhere. What they are really saying is: My ideology is the only one that counts, and the insert name of place (By Ward Market, Major Arena, Museum, etc.) should be able to thrive with only the relatively few local customers that it can draw in.

If the city wants to make the By Ward Market a destination from city-wide, then it must make it accessible – especially for private cars. Put a huge underground parking level under a pedestrian plaza on York. Make it easy to drive into and leave from that parking, on major roads that lead in all directions.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Sorry folks, but the way I see it; The By Ward Market has been in decline because fewer and fewer people are going there to buy things at an open-air market. This has forced the various ‘marketers’ to chase customers by setting up week-end markets out in the suburbs – in places where their customers can easily get to (often by car).

To be a successful merchant, you need to have thing to sell that are in demand, and you need enough customers to come and buy your products. Those customers can either come from the local surrounding, or come from afar. If there are not sufficient local customers, then there is a reliance on attracting additional customers from afar. To do that, the location needs to be a destination; one that does not have viable competition that is closer to those customers from afar.

Also, the merchant’s location needs to be easy to get to, by ALL methods of transportation. Barriers will reduce the number of customers from afar who are willing to travel.

Although it is getting better, there are still, probably, not enough people downtown to support the By Ward Market. The same is true for the Rideau Centre. That is why the Rideau Centre has lots of parking available, even though it was built with lots of public transit access.

Absolutely, a pedestrianized By Ward Market would be fantastic. I would love to see it become a destination for people from all across the city, animated with lots of market stalls and activities. But, in order for it to attract people to make the effort to go there, it must offer easy transportation to/from it. (And that also goes for within the area. I know several people who will never drive downtown because they get too frustrated by the One-Way streets.)

There is a lot of talk on this thread about simply removing parking and forcing folks to take transit if they are going to go anywhere. What they are really saying is: My ideology is the only one that counts, and the insert name of place (By Ward Market, Major Arena, Museum, etc.) should be able to thrive with only the relatively few local customers that it can draw in.

If the city wants to make the By Ward Market a destination from city-wide, then it must make it accessible – especially for private cars. Put a huge underground parking level under a pedestrian plaza on York. Make it easy to drive into and leave from that parking, on major roads that lead in all directions.

I agree with your general point about the attitude of this forum and other transit and city building communities more generally. This is not an Arena, museum or the like though. This is our historic restaurant and market area. It is meters from the nexus of our rapid transport network. Unlike most I even agree we still need parking. We don't need free surface parking most of which is used by employees and residents anyway. We don't need to let people cut through on their way to other places.

The actual market stalls are completely dead. And you are right being able to drive to Landsdowne, Parkdale etc makes Byward less competitive. It is still a destination for general wandering around which would be much more desirable with a safer pedestrian experience. People definitely enjoy and seek out these areas in cities.

[RegionalRoad31]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Sorry folks, but the way I see it; The By Ward Market has been in decline because fewer and fewer people are going there to buy things at an open-air market. This has forced the various ‘marketers’ to chase customers by setting up week-end markets out in the suburbs – in places where their customers can easily get to (often by car).

To be a successful merchant, you need to have thing to sell that are in demand, and you need enough customers to come and buy your products. Those customers can either come from the local surrounding, or come from afar. If there are not sufficient local customers, then there is a reliance on attracting additional customers from afar. To do that, the location needs to be a destination; one that does not have viable competition that is closer to those customers from afar.

Also, the merchant’s location needs to be easy to get to, by ALL methods of transportation. Barriers will reduce the number of customers from afar who are willing to travel.

Although it is getting better, there are still, probably, not enough people downtown to support the By Ward Market. The same is true for the Rideau Centre. That is why the Rideau Centre has lots of parking available, even though it was built with lots of public transit access.

Absolutely, a pedestrianized By Ward Market would be fantastic. I would love to see it become a destination for people from all across the city, animated with lots of market stalls and activities. But, in order for it to attract people to make the effort to go there, it must offer easy transportation to/from it. (And that also goes for within the area. I know several people who will never drive downtown because they get too frustrated by the One-Way streets.)

There is a lot of talk on this thread about simply removing parking and forcing folks to take transit if they are going to go anywhere. What they are really saying is: My ideology is the only one that counts, and the insert name of place (By Ward Market, Major Arena, Museum, etc.) should be able to thrive with only the relatively few local customers that it can draw in.

If the city wants to make the By Ward Market a destination from city-wide, then it must make it accessible – especially for private cars. Put a huge underground parking level under a pedestrian plaza on York. Make it easy to drive into and leave from that parking, on major roads that lead in all directions.

Couldn’t disagree with you more. Firstly - nobody or almost nobody is saying the market doesn’t need parking. What we are saying is it does not need on street parking in its highest value areas. And it doesn’t. Why on earth do we have the Ottawa sign - ostensibly a tourist attraction - flanked on all sides by cars? It’s surrounded by restaurants as is, does a nice square with expanded patios not make perfect sense?

By all means, if you want to drive come on down and use the parking garages. And you said it yourself - you know people who will not venture downtown due to one way streets. Will those same people suddenly be willing to come down one way streets because the end location has lots of parking? No. They won’t. They might brave the streets if there was something to do and enjoy though, such as a nice pedestrianized square in which to sit down and have a coffee or beer.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

If the city wants to make the By Ward Market a destination from city-wide, then it must make it accessible – especially for private cars. Put a huge underground parking level under a pedestrian plaza on York. Make it easy to drive into and leave from that parking, on major roads that lead in all directions.

If this was actually true, and the prescription for vibrant downtown areas was easy car access, then there should be lots of examples of vibrant downtowns where it is easy to drive. Unless you have an example of what you are advocating for, it seems a little far-fetched.

You are also forgetting that the Market already is quite easy to drive to, relatively speaking. That doesn’t seem to be the answer.

Downtowns don’t compete with suburbs on parking. It will always be easier to pull up to a big box store in an ocean of parking. People who prioritize convenience for cars are not the customer base for the Market. Areas like the Market compete on the unique experience they provide. Pedestrian streets enhance that. Parking does not.

[Richard Eade]

Luckily, I have not advocated for the By Ward Market to “compete with suburbs on parking.” Having car access to somewhere does not automatically make it a desirable destination.

The By Ward Market needs to be a unique place. Somewhere that attracts people from all across the city. It must be something that people can’t experience elsewhere.

However, that is not enough. If it is to actually get people to go downtown, it must be easily accessible. I expect that lots of people would like to visit the Great Pyramids of Egypt, too, but most will never go because there are too many roadblocks for them. The idea is to minimize any impediments to travel to the By Ward Market.

The By Ward Market must become a desirable, unique, destination. Pedestrification of the area is likely a big part of that. So is special lighting at night to highlight its uniqueness; and one-of-a-kind restaraunts; and farmers selling their produce; and buskers and other animation.

I am suggesting that The Market also needs to be easily accessible so that people are not dissuaded from going there. As such, I believe that the city should be putting a layer of car parking UNDER the pedestrianized By Ward Market. All of the attraction of The Market must be at grade, with the parking hidden underneath.

For example:



Where the blue roads are at grade and the red and fuchsia are ramps/tunnels to underground parking. The green is the area exclusively dedicated to pedestrians (and market stalls), with parking under it. Merchants can park under their stalls and there can be lifts added for them.

Notice that I have also narrowed Sussex at York, to make it easier for pedestrians to cross. Also, a chicane has been added there to slow the one-way traffic. Only pedestrian crossing signals are needed.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

If this was actually true, and the prescription for vibrant downtown areas was easy car access, then there should be lots of examples of vibrant downtowns where it is easy to drive. Unless you have an example of what you are advocating for, it seems a little far-fetched.

You are also forgetting that the Market already is quite easy to drive to, relatively speaking. That doesn’t seem to be the answer.

Downtowns don’t compete with suburbs on parking. It will always be easier to pull up to a big box store in an ocean of parking. People who prioritize convenience for cars are not the customer base for the Market. Areas like the Market compete on the unique experience they provide. Pedestrian streets enhance that. Parking does not.

I think Landsdowne has shown that a large amount of parking will attract suburbanites.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think Landsdowne has shown that a large amount of parking will attract suburbanites.

And yet when Lansdowne is busiest during events, it has little to no parking. So maybe the parking isn’t a key factor.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

And yet when Lansdowne is busiest during events, it has little to no parking. So maybe the parking isn’t a key factor.

But on those occasions there is good express transit access from distant points in the city and without transfers. That is the old transit model, that we have otherwise tossed out the window. Parking isn't a key factor, because a good alternative has been offered.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Sorry folks, but the way I see it; The By Ward Market has been in decline because fewer and fewer people are going there to buy things at an open-air market. This has forced the various ‘marketers’ to chase customers by setting up week-end markets out in the suburbs – in places where their customers can easily get to (often by car).

To be a successful merchant, you need to have thing to sell that are in demand, and you need enough customers to come and buy your products. Those customers can either come from the local surrounding, or come from afar. If there are not sufficient local customers, then there is a reliance on attracting additional customers from afar. To do that, the location needs to be a destination; one that does not have viable competition that is closer to those customers from afar.

Also, the merchant’s location needs to be easy to get to, by ALL methods of transportation. Barriers will reduce the number of customers from afar who are willing to travel.

Although it is getting better, there are still, probably, not enough people downtown to support the By Ward Market. The same is true for the Rideau Centre. That is why the Rideau Centre has lots of parking available, even though it was built with lots of public transit access.

Absolutely, a pedestrianized By Ward Market would be fantastic. I would love to see it become a destination for people from all across the city, animated with lots of market stalls and activities. But, in order for it to attract people to make the effort to go there, it must offer easy transportation to/from it. (And that also goes for within the area. I know several people who will never drive downtown because they get too frustrated by the One-Way streets.)

There is a lot of talk on this thread about simply removing parking and forcing folks to take transit if they are going to go anywhere. What they are really saying is: My ideology is the only one that counts, and the insert name of place (By Ward Market, Major Arena, Museum, etc.) should be able to thrive with only the relatively few local customers that it can draw in.

If the city wants to make the By Ward Market a destination from city-wide, then it must make it accessible – especially for private cars. Put a huge underground parking level under a pedestrian plaza on York. Make it easy to drive into and leave from that parking, on major roads that lead in all directions.

The 30 kph speed limits on major thoroughfares are also a deterrent. Who wants to drive anywhere when you have to have your foot on the brake the whole time?

The biggest deterrent is the homeless and drug problems and the perception of crime and shootings.

Another deterrent, is the much reduced reach of transfer-free transit compared to the Transitway era and I am not talking about express buses. The train may be great, but you can't go very far. Phase 2 will help, but it still doesn't have nearly the reach of the old transitway buses.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think Landsdowne has shown that a large amount of parking will attract suburbanites.

The BMDA advertises that there are more than 11,000 parking spots in and around the market. Is that not a large amount of parking? Do we need 15,000 spaces? 20,000 spaces?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think Landsdowne has shown that a large amount of parking will attract suburbanites.

Don't really need them given how quickly downtown population, especially along Rideau is growing. They need a few well placed parking garages. And the rest should be pedestrianized.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

The BMDA advertises that there are more than 11,000 parking spots in and around the market. Is that not a large amount of parking? Do we need 15,000 spaces? 20,000 spaces?

I didn't say that. I was responding to a post that was asking for examples of an urban area where parking brings in customers.

As an aside, I have no idea how they would get to 11,000. A quick check of the parkopedia says the two municipal garages are about 700 total. The private garage is about 400. There are a few surface lots north of Murray that might have 100 total and the Cathedral has 161. There are maybe a few hundred on street spots in the market area.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I didn't say that. I was responding to a post that was asking for examples of an urban area where parking brings in customers.

As an aside, I have no idea how they would get to 11,000. A quick check of the parkopedia says the two municipal garages are about 700 total. The private garage is about 400. There are a few surface lots north of Murray that might have 100 total and the Cathedral has 161. There are maybe a few hundred on street spots in the market area.

That's fair, my apologies. I'm assuming they're including Rideau Centre which has approx 1500 and other nearby lots like World Exchange but I'm not 100% sure. Anyways, there's an abundance of parking in the area whether in the market itself or within walking distance. I'm in the market at least once a week and if there's one thing that isn't a problem, it's parking.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Luckily, I have not advocated for the By Ward Market to “compete with suburbs on parking.” Having car access to somewhere does not automatically make it a desirable destination.

The By Ward Market needs to be a unique place. Somewhere that attracts people from all across the city. It must be something that people can’t experience elsewhere.

However, that is not enough. If it is to actually get people to go downtown, it must be easily accessible. I expect that lots of people would like to visit the Great Pyramids of Egypt, too, but most will never go because there are too many roadblocks for them. The idea is to minimize any impediments to travel to the By Ward Market.

The By Ward Market must become a desirable, unique, destination. Pedestrification of the area is likely a big part of that. So is special lighting at night to highlight its uniqueness; and one-of-a-kind restaraunts; and farmers selling their produce; and buskers and other animation.

I am suggesting that The Market also needs to be easily accessible so that people are not dissuaded from going there. As such, I believe that the city should be putting a layer of car parking UNDER the pedestrianized By Ward Market. All of the attraction of The Market must be at grade, with the parking hidden underneath.

For example:



Where the blue roads are at grade and the red and fuchsia are ramps/tunnels to underground parking. The green is the area exclusively dedicated to pedestrians (and market stalls), with parking under it. Merchants can park under their stalls and there can be lifts added for them.

Notice that I have also narrowed Sussex at York, to make it easier for pedestrians to cross. Also, a chicane has been added there to slow the one-way traffic. Only pedestrian crossing signals are needed.

That was in the cards at one point, but now the City decided to instead find a private partner to build parking at the edge of the Market, before proceeding to, well, not actually ask anyone, kind of like we're waiting for transit funding for projects we didn't officially ask upper levels to fund.

Although I used to like this idea, of burying parking under York Street, today I would rather avoid car ramps in the Market. It would take away from the heritage and charm of the place. I might be open to doing that near Dalhousie or King Edward.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

But on those occasions there is good express transit access from distant points in the city and without transfers. That is the old transit model, that we have otherwise tossed out the window. Parking isn't a key factor, because a good alternative has been offered.

So, we need better transit, not parking?

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The 30 kph speed limits on major thoroughfares are also a deterrent. Who wants to drive anywhere when you have to have your foot on the brake the whole time?

The biggest deterrent is the homeless and drug problems and the perception of crime and shootings.

Another deterrent, is the much reduced reach of transfer-free transit compared to the Transitway era and I am not talking about express buses. The train may be great, but you can't go very far. Phase 2 will help, but it still doesn't have nearly the reach of the old transitway buses.

I don't think transfers are inherently bad. I think it's how much time we have to wait for transfers. Transferring between Line 1 and Line 2 was, for the brief moment we had both, quite comfortable. When you're transferring between to modes that pass frequently (for arguments sake, we'll call 12 minutes frequent, at least you could sit on the train for 6 minutes) and reliably. Problem with buses is that they are often every 15 minutes + on paper, but don't actually show up, or and/or are packed to the gills. With a reliable bus network with 10 minute frequencies, it would be easier and desirable to go to the Market.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think Landsdowne has shown that a large amount of parking will attract suburbanites.

I think Landsdowne shows that a safe environment will attract suburbanites. The parking is actually expensive and limited. But yes it still exists and I think the suburban shopper coming to buy $15 hot sauce or $10 wild garlic prefers quick and convenient underground paid parking to the mess that is the Byward market. The byward market should be a wandering around cool gathering place. It's never going to compete on driving convenience and safety. The transit and tourist crowd can certainly support a healthy bar and restaurant scene.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

But on those occasions there is good express transit access from distant points in the city and without transfers. That is the old transit model, that we have otherwise tossed out the window. Parking isn't a key factor, because a good alternative has been offered.

Not really though. There are express buses for a few big events, but not for the festivals, markets, 67s or PWHL games. Most of the time transit to Lansdowne is much worse than transit to the Market.

Express buses are a solution for getting a lot of people in or out in a short period of time. They don’t have much to do with the overall vibrancy of an area.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Not really though. There are express buses for a few big events, but not for the festivals, markets, 67s or PWHL games. Most of the time transit to Lansdowne is much worse than transit to the Market.

Express buses are a solution for getting a lot of people in or out in a short period of time. They don’t have much to do with the overall vibrancy of an area.

But the parking isn’t closed for most of those occasions.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think Landsdowne shows that a safe environment will attract suburbanites. The parking is actually expensive and limited. But yes it still exists and I think the suburban shopper coming to buy $15 hot sauce or $10 wild garlic prefers quick and convenient underground paid parking to the mess that is the Byward market. The byward market should be a wandering around cool gathering place. It's never going to compete on driving convenience and safety. The transit and tourist crowd can certainly support a healthy bar and restaurant scene.

I think that’s true, but until fairly recently the market was where you went for $15 hot sauce and $10 wild garlic. Not sure a cool wandering around place can pay the bills.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But the parking isn’t closed for most of those occasions.

That's when you street park if you can't get into the garage. I have already tried the 6 bus for one of those smaller events and the service was unreliable.